Running JTDX and WSJT-X simmulataneously?

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JTDX is a new version of JT65 program that seems to be able to decode JT65 much better than WSJT-X V1.7

http://www.qrz.lt/ly3bg/JTDX/jtdx.html

Since I am into comparative testing,

The only real way to get an accurate comparison of WSJT-X vs JTDX is to run an instance of Both programs at the same time on the same band. Basically two slices on the same frequency which is easy to do with the Flex.

As you are aware Flex 6700 is a multi-slice receiver capable of receiving 8 simultaneous digital signals. 

 I have successfully run multiple simultaneous instances of WSJT on the same and different bands with no issues or conflicts

I have successfully run multiple simultaneous instances of JTDX on the same and different bands with no issues or conflicts

However when I try to run an instance of WSJT-X and JTDX at the same time the programs seem to hang at decode time.   

 

Any suggestions or ideas?

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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Posted 3 years ago

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Bill W2PKY

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Brought this up to Igor and he doesn't know why either. Think if you start JTDX first and then WSJT-X might work, I gave up after Igor didn't have an answer. Have seen as many as 61 decodes on 20M with JTDX
(Edited)
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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First thing I tried.. did not work
But glad to hear that others have this issue
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George Molnar, KF2T, Elmer

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A guess - since they are the same decode engine, you might want to try loading WSJT-x with a command line option like you would for a second rig. If I understand correctly, the JTDX app uses more aggressive decoding parameters, which allows for more decodes of weak signals, but with less probability of accuracy. While not exactly the same, you can get a similar effect in WSJT-X by adjusting the advanced settings some.
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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George
Good ideas... will give them a try

on the surface JTDX seems to be able to decode many more signal than WSJT

BUT in order for the really weak guys (-25 or worse)  to hear me, i have had to run 1.5KW into the beam (10+KW ERP) and even then some do not hear me..
(Edited)
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Bill W2PKY

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Many of us with FLEX Radios seem to have similar problems with one way DX! Heard over in Europe some bands are actually saturated so could be QRM issues.
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Pat - WH6HI

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Howard, did you consider that the problem was plain old propagation or lack there of...... Depending on frequency, a 1.5Kw power would be just some much ground wave.  That would be tricky for other nearby listening to your ground wave signal.  
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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@Pat

Actually with my beam I run an ERP in EXCESS of 10KW  (1.5KW x 10dBi gain)  @85' @600' ASL on the west side of a mountain 1KM from the Pacific Ocean. 

Unfortunately Not a Heck of a Lot of Ground Wave to the East because the mountain gets in the way.   Hawaii which is the closest place to me on the West is too far for Ground Wave.

if anything I actually wish I had a much stronger ground wave to the East because my signals tend to skip over most of the nearby states.  

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Larry: KE2YC

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Is it possible to run separate programs?  Like one on computer and create a virtual drive and run 2nd from there.  Just a question from a noob.  lol

Larry
ke2yc 
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Bill W2PKY

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Separate directories do not help. Two computers on the network could run separate DAX apps and run the two apps that way.
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Larry: KE2YC

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Ok thank you, But I thought when you create a virtual drive it is like a second computer?  Just learning.

Larry
ke2yc
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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SOLUTION:

I just ran two different computers at the same time,

1.  One computer 1 Started SSDR  with Slice A DAX Channel 1  and Slice B DAX Channel 2
2.  Run WSJT on Computer 1 to slice A DAX 1 on 14.076
3.  Run JTDX on Computer 2 to DAX 2 on 14.076
4.  had to screw around with the controls for JTDX to convince it was connected to the radio
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Bill W2PKY

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JTDX shines on crowded bands. Do not expect a difference when activity is low.
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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I'm running both now so we can you can see after a few hours how they compare
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Here are direct receive screens..  pretty obvious JTDX hears better

 

Albeit I did have the slices on slightly different frequencies  - too much wine

 The first is WSJT-X



The Second is JTDX

(Edited)
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Bill W2PKY

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My 24 hr stats on PSKreporter has gone up 30% since switching to JTDX. On a recent weekend was watching 20M and noticed 61 decodes. Previous best on WSJT-X was 34 decodes.
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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OK.  Now you have really piqued my interest in JTDX.
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George Molnar, KF2T, Elmer

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Maybe I'm missing something. JTDX is at 14077 with max freq reported of 1071 Hz. WSJT is at 14076 with max freq reported 454 Hz. Reported Passband for one 14077.0 to 14078.1, the other 14076.0 to 14076.5 . Doesn't make for a lot to compare, especially with apparently different bandwidth.
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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@George

I had the second slice setup on the wrong frequency,

I have since corrected the issue

Both Slices have 5 MHz Bandwidths


JTDX still consistently outperforms WSJT


I will post a corrected Screen Shots later today

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George Molnar, KF2T, Elmer

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Fascinating, Howard. Thanks for doing the comparison.
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Cliff

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Hi all,

I ran both together no issues here, what I did was run one as normal and the other using right click and ran as administrator. Found little differences in RX but havent seen a crowded band for a while.

Cliff VK2NP
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KM4CQG

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Does JT Alert work  with just curious JTDX ?

Howard how does JTDX do with WSPR?

Ian
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Bill W2PKY

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for JTAlert need to install the blue JTAlert ICON, wspr is another mode of WSJT-X so probably issues there.
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KB4AAA

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Yes when you install JT Alert it will give you an option to install a version for JTDX. I run both JT alert and JTDX & WSJT-X side by side with no issues. The only thing that I haven't spend much time is I don't seem to get as many responses back from answering someones CQ on JTDX than WSJT-X it could just be coincidence or who knows. I haven't been able to use anything for over a month. Installed a new tower (3 weeks) hooked up my 6300 to try my new hexbeam out dead? Sent back into Flex for repair been there for 2 weeks hopefully I will get it back in 4-5 more weeks and do some more testing between the 2 programs.
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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I find that when the other guy is weaker than say -23 to -25 then I really need to boost my output power so that they can hear me over the less than optimal signal path.  Basically at least 100W below -20...

To date my best ever QSO was a DL @ -29 when I ran 1.5KW into my beam (10+KW ERP) so he could hear me and he gave me a -19...

Sort of wish the weak guys would have better receivers as invariably the weak ones are the interesting DX.
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Chris DL5NAM

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from Igor (JTDX):

... I have got this picture with 61 decodes from air interface, doing my tests I observed up to 120 JT65 decodes in 2700 Hz bandwidth from the simulated wav files there are links published qrz.com/db/ua3djy to various sets of the simulated wav files ...
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Now both on the same frequencies on the same radio and antenna but different slices


WSJT



JTDX

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Doug Hall

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This still doesn't make any sense to me. The highest frequency I'm seeing with WSJT is just a little over 1100 Hz, whereas you have decodes all up and down the band with JTDX. And both slices have the same filter bandwidth?
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Agreed

I am looking into the 1100Hz anomaly on the second computer as both slices have the same bandwidth

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Bill W2PKY

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Howard your signal level is a little high, 30 db is considered optimum.
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Bill W2PKY

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On the WSJT-X ver did you expand the waterfall out to 4KC?
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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I actually use 5MHz default
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Pretty obvious JTDX is just hearing so much more even with aggressive decodes on WSJT

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Larry - W8LLL

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I started using jtdx last night and the differance is very noticable, decodes at -30 are becoming routine on both transmit and receive. Signals I can't see in the waterfall are being decoded.
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Eric Gruff

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And there's a "JT9 LID" somewhere...
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Eric Gruff

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And in all seriousness, I have no problem making JTDX and WSJT-X play together with my Flex 6700. Lots of other programs (CW Skimmer, PstRotatorAZ, HRD, amp software from Alpha and Expert, fldigi, and more) are running on a generic PC with no problem or hiccups. Take out the JT software and add N1MM+, and it works great for SO2R in contests. Not that hard to do, but the cables are a nightmare!

0.
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W5XZ - dan

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thanks howard.  I'll have to try it on 160m.

73 w5xz, dan
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Is anyone using the AGCc function in JTDX?
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Bill W2PKY

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Haven't tried it yet but here are some clips from the release notes document on the JTDX website:
Recommended settings for v17.4: http://www.qrz.lt/ly3bg/JTDX/info/rel...

See 17.4 region of the document.

- JT65+JT9 combined mode
- AGCc button: use it only if AGC being triggered in receiver by JT signals at beginning of the RX interval. Noise level change in the waterfall might be used as criterion showing that AGC is triggered in the receiver.
- Hint button: use it to decode signals on the QSO frequency and for wideband hinted decoding of the CQ messages

I use FAST with the slider all the way to the right. AGC OFF has not worked for me as signals vary so much.
Recently my stats on PSKreporter 14.5K reports in 24 hours and 104 countries so something is working!

Saw a test where the AGC button did help with files that had over 300 stations in a minute; however, when there are that many calls to look through a few extra + or - are irrelevant!
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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I use FAST with the slider all the way to the right. 

Then the AGC is not working properly for you as you are feeding the AGC too much gain.  AGC-T needs to be set for band conditions.

The AGC system in SmartSDR is a dual track system, meaning that it can track both slow and fast increases in signal strength, making appropriate gain correction decisions in the presence of each.

The AGC-T sets the maximum gain applied under any circumstances.  Since the noise floor is relatively constant on a given band at a given time, the AGC can be adjusted using the threshold control so that the AGC never applies gain to noise, but it will apply gain to signals just out of the noise.  In doing so, the AGC can reduce the level of noise you hear and help signals pop out of the noise.

To adjust the AGC Threshold, tune to a quiet spot between stations. Starting with the AGC-T at a high value adjust the AGC-T slider to the left (lower gain values) until the background noise just begins to decrease.  This is the AGC-T "sweet spot" or the "knee" of the AGC algorithm.  Depending on band conditions, if the AGC-T is set below 50, you may have to compensate for the loss in audio gain (volume) by increasing the Slice or master AF volume to a higher value.  When you get the knee and AF volume adjustment correct for the band conditions, it will keep the volume of strong signals constant which will allow weaker signals to be heard even with AGC in FAST mode.  Thus AGC-T is one of the most important adjustments, and often overlooked, to achieve the maximum weak signal receive performance out of the FLEX- 6000 series SDRs.
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Bill W2PKY

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i will try those settings, thanks;
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Official Response from Igor. UA3DJY. The author of JTDX

Hello Howard,

It is most likely this issue is connected to the same executable file name wsjtx.exe being used by both software and it is memory sharing issue. Unfortunately now I can not change it to jtdx.exe now as this approach will restrict JTAlert usage for HRD software users.

In some scenario I did run both WSJT-X and JTDX on the same computer under Windows 10, I did use --rig-name key for one of them and software starting order makes sense there also.

73 Igor UA3DJY
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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NOW for a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE

On one computer, WSJT-X receives to about 1200Hz

On the second computer, WSJT-X receives full bandwidth


Both running W7/64 -

WSJT Configurations are EXACTLY the same.

Results do not differ for the following variations

1. on any different DAX Channel

2.  I can run an instance of WSJT simultaneously on both computers or NOT

3.  I can share the same DAX Channel or Not

4.  I can run SSDR on either computer

DAX Version is the most current Alpha version on both computers.

The first computer is an i7 and the second computer is an i5

Both have lots of memory.


Any guesses as to why I only receive 1200Hz on that one computer????

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Doug Hall

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I know you said that both configurations are exactly the same, but I'll ask this anyway: Is it possible that in WSJT under File->Settings->Advanced you have a different setting for Receiver Bandwidth on one of your computers?
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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First thing I looked at. Both the same
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Weirder and Weirder

I got it working

 

Everything had been set the same as EXCEPT I had bins/pixel =2 and I usually keep it at bins/pixel =4 on the other machine that worked OK 

But I finally got around to looking at the waterfall screen.. changed it to bins/pixel=4 because it was only showing the lower frequencies

 AND WSJT started to receive above 1200 Hz

Only thing I can guess is that it does not somehow receive outside of the ACTUAL waterfall window???



Interesting discovery

DAX and SmartCAT can be addressed from multiple computers on the same network at the same time... and in fact it would seem that while SmartCAT needs separate IP Ports from different computers to operate CAT on the Radio, DAX can share the same DAX RX number on at least two different machines at the same time..


Who knew??


ANYWAYS... opens up huge possibilities for experimentation especially for comparing digital modes....


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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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RTFM



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Eric Gruff

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Well, I must confess I missed that too. Good catch!
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Cliff

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I'm guessing you have the same RX mode and bandwidth on SSDR on both
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Yes
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Andrew O'Brien

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Just be aware that a couple of months ago, WSJTX author  Joe Taylor  urged some caution about the reliability of JTDX in terms of the deep search decodes.  
Andy K3UK
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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SOLUTION #2

Start WSJT-X and JTDX from a command-prompt window, passing each instance a unique identifier (MACHINE NAME) as in the following two-instance example. This procedure will isolate the Settings file and the writable file location for each instance of WSJT-X AND JTDX

wsjtx --rig-name=WSJT
wsjtx --rig-name=JTDX

NOTE:  BOTH WSJT AND JTDX USE THE SAME PROGRAM NAME WSJTX


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W5XZ - dan

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say, it's working! re JTDX

last night, pskReporter says I heard SV9CVY, IS0XRB, CT1EKY, DL5MGV, DK3DG, G3LDI, and SM6NOC, all on 160m.  and top band has been LOUSY.  while none were new, it is interesting

recent all night runs, while i'm sleeping, with wsjt 17 would only turn up one or 2 europeans.

thanks for the heads up, howard.  maybe i'll finally get mainland china ??  which i DO need..

73, w5xz, dan