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antenna choice

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Answers

  • KY6LA_Howard
    KY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2014
    Yet another gimmick vertical antenna. Good SWR terrible radiation efficiency.
  • Jim Gilliam
    Jim Gilliam Member
    edited May 2015
    Just look at the good side...less probable TVI
  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    I never said it wouldn't work AT ALL.  The 18-HighTower is a great, classic multi-band antenna.  But just think how much more effective it would be with a decent radial system...as the manufacturer recommends.  Your efficiency will go UP and your radiation angle will go DOWN, which is even better for DX.
  • Jim Gilliam
    Jim Gilliam Member
    edited May 2015

    Has anyone modeled a vertical dipole with the bottom tip a few inches above earth? It would seem with the proximity of the lower leg of the dipole next to earth would relegate the antenna to not much more than a 1/4 wave vertical with one vertical radial.


    Jim

  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Howard...No real argument here.  There is a lot of junk sold as "Multiband verticals" whose only real selling point is "broadbanded" including some that are simple throwbacks to the old Van Gordon antenna with a better matching network. Some with a simple resistor network to give a constant 50 ohm match to the rig.  But the radiation efficiency is horrible!  But people swear by them because they make contacts.  But they may be using a compromise antenna with 100 watts that is getting performance comparable to a 5 watt rig and a decent antenna.  you can still make DX contacts if you work hard enough.

    My emphasis was on the lower frequencies -- 160/80 and sometimes 40/30 where for longer DX a good efficient vertical with excellent ground, (not a junk trap vertical), usually has a lower effective angle of radiation that a dipole at the heights that MOST hams in my area are able to achieve easily.  (Those blessed with 100 ft trees can go ahead with the dipoles, loops, V-beams, rhombics, and wire yagi's!)

    Yes, a rotatable dipole or 2 element beam at 85 ft or more will probably outperform the vertical on 40 meters.  But for DX work, I have a hard time believing that most hams can get a dipole up high enough on 80/160 to be better for DX than a well designed vertical or inverted 'L'.  Though I have heard some monster stations with rotatable 3 element full sized yagis on 80 meters.... (crazy loud signal and lots of $$$!) 

    But, If I could swing a tower and antenna like yours,  I wouldn't mess with verticals on 40 and above at all!  When I get the T-11 Log Periodic up at 58 ft, my vertical will be redesigned for 40/30 exclusively.  I won't need it on the higher bands any more.  But I will need BOTH my dipoles and vertical/ inverted 'L' for 160-40 depending upon the distance.
  • KY6LA_Howard
    KY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2014
    Ken

    Great minds think alike...

    As I keep on repeating myself.. over the years when I was traveling a lot for business all over the world, I bought and played with most of those gimmick - traps - resistors - tuning thingy- verticals ..  why?  I kept on dreaming that there was a magic bullet that would play well for me....


    . with very rare exceptions (the SteppIR BIgIR was one exception) none of them played very well EXCEPT when we phased a couple of verticals over salt water in Bora Bora......

    Even when I was the rare DX and people really wanted to work me the Inverted V's in a tree invariably got better responses than the gimmick verticals...  So much for low angles of radiation...  Radiation Efficiency beats low angles most of the time....

    Further our contest club (especially Dennis N6KI and Myself) borrows or buys and plays with virtually every antenna we can find in a never ending process to find an extra edge in contesting....

    The superb reports you see around the Internet are usually from Hams who have never had a beam to compare with their gimmick vertical... a very close friend and neighbor of mine living in an HOA absolutely swears by his gimmick vertical (basically a large resistor)...yet when I call him to alert him to some DX booming into my station, 90% of the time he can barely hear them....

    So I have a hard time recommending any of the compromise vertical antennas as they as usually a waste of money...



    If one is to put up a vertical then avoid the gimmicks - put up a full quarter wave with a full ground system... over better yet.. elevate the vertical with a good ground plane...

    I rarely work 160M.. only have a shortened dipole   but I have a rotatable dipole for 80/60M at 85', 3 elements on 40M, 4 Elements 20,17,15,12, 10 and 6 Elements on 6M...   Interestingly enough I actually get better performance on the highest bands by lowering the tower to improve the angle of radiation....

  • Walt - KZ1F
    Walt - KZ1F Member ✭✭
    edited November 2016
    Hey Tony, if you want to talk Gap Titan, email me direct via qrz email.
  • Steve K9ZW
    Steve K9ZW Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016

    When the WAN version (2.0) of SMartSDR hits the street I think there will be more than a few UK Hams who locate an antenna and their Flex-6x00 somewhere rural and operate from home.

    One of the wife's second cousins has a large Derbyshire farm, and I have been trying to negotiate an antenna & radio radio room with power and internet in preparation for the WAN version myself.

    If that doesn't work family friends have a decent farm location in Germany, or perhaps the relatives summer place in southern Spain would be a good remote QTH?

    73

    Steve
    K9ZW

  • Jim Gilliam
    Jim Gilliam Member
    edited May 2015

    Steve...you are a man after my own heart! I couldn't agree more. I live in Pasadena, Ca, and the bureaucratic Gods have decreed they know what's best for me. Fortunately to my little recluse in Big Bear, California, the Gods have yet to reach those outskirts so I have a remote set up there using a 5000. Can't wait to put in the 6500 up there. Happy New Year to you!!!


    Jim, K6QE

  • Walt - KZ1F
    Walt - KZ1F Member ✭✭
    edited November 2016
    Wow, before you guys get all moist over 2.x you might want to wait to see what it does over RDP. It's being hyped way beyond what FRS can be reasonably expected to deliver on.  And they have been deliberately mum on what it will entail.  Also, if 1.x spanned over a year is there any expectation 2.x won't span into 2016? We've all seen what happened with FRS being 30 days late. I think having an isolated $8,000 piece of electronic equipment that will fit under your arm presents a unique issue when in a isolated left alone environment. But, to each their own. And with that I am unfollowing this thread as it's been answered and is now a group grope forum.
  • Jim Gilliam
    Jim Gilliam Member
    edited May 2015
    Thank you for telling me off. I really needed that to get my mind focused on the important issuses.
  • Steve K9ZW
    Steve K9ZW Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016

    Walt - you need to relax.

    If you don't like your Flex perhaps you might sell it.  Really.  Hoping in real life you're a lot happier than such pessimistic (and speculative) writings. 

    What I really mean is if you need feature(s) XYZ right now, or absolutely by a certain date, move on to a radio that has it...

    Oh, you didn't find another alternative... gee...

    If having a new updated radio feature set every quarter or so isn't fun for you there are a lot of static designs that are decent.  I have a couple of them myself, and I like those radio a lot - right back to my Collins S-Line setup that is as old as I am!

    As for having $8K of gear at a remote site, how is that a limiting factor?  I leave ten times that in the parking lot at the airport every time I fly somewhere, and I know there are thieves at work there.

    Actually I would expect to have around $20+K in the shack and perhaps $10-12K in the antennas/towers for a class remote site.  But then I am a "two is one, one is none" person and would have full redundancy in the remote shack.

    Might do like my home QTH, where the Flex-6700 is backed up by a Flex-6300, as I wanted the 6300 for travel use and had blown my radio fund on the Hilberling PT-8000A...

    73

    Steve

    K9ZW


  • KY6LA_Howard
    KY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2014
    Steve... Totally Off Topic

    I have played with the PT-8000A in a contest from OK1MY.... Found it to be a very very good radio but the lack of a great scope was a deal killer for me..

    Wonder what your impressions of it were compared to the 6700?
  • Steve K9ZW
    Steve K9ZW Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016

    Holding off saying too much until I have some a few more QSOs down with the PT-8000A.  I also haven't pulled the 6300 out now that my 6700 is back from FRS, and I really want to do the A/B testing between that pair.

    Writing about it at http://k9zw.wordpress.com

    Latest installment is http://k9zw.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/comparison-part-1-hilberling-pt-8000-in-the-k9zw-shack/

    I've promised the PT-8000A to George W9EVT as my physical shack space is limited and the Hilberling has been a dream of his to have to operate.  When my new space is ready after our next remodeling phase, I will likely get another PT-8000A but this time in the Green/Bronze as I do like in Green Bay Packer country....

    73

    Steve

    K9ZW


  • Walt - KZ1F
    Walt - KZ1F Member ✭✭
    edited November 2016
    Yeah Steve, I got it, only the truly righteous (like yourself) should own a flex. The rest of us are truly unworthy of their (or your) greatness.  I've seen some fan boys but Steve, you really top the list.
  • Steve K9ZW
    Steve K9ZW Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016

    Have a Happy New Year Walt!  You owe me a **** for being grumpy and negative, but I will buy you one in return - perhaps at Dayton? 

    You do need to remember I am entitled to my own opinion just like you are. 

    And yes you are entitled to yours without my judgment, though negative baseless speculative pontificating does deserve being called out as baseless.

    If FRS come up short, shout it out.  But if they haven't come up short then get a hold of your doubts and self importance.

    In all honesty I am very pleased with both my 6700 and my 6300 at the present (1.38) level of SmartSDR.  They work fine for me - YMMV and I respect that, but I have no time for you if you think your issues trump the success (and enjoyment) I am experiencing.

    If being successful with a Flex-6x00 makes a person a "fan boy" in your book, remember what you think doesn't matter to anyone other than you.  I'm more than willing to share everything about how I've made the 6700 and 6300 perform well for me to anyone who needs a hand. 

    No piece of any gear is the ultimate panacea - the universal solution - and we need to be realistic about that.  My buddy George W9EVT has perhaps 800 transceivers, several hundred ready to go in his shack, and I learned from him that from the lowliest to the highest every one of the radios has something to experience. 

    Because I learned that lesson I always have fun - always.  There are radios I don't want to keep or just don't get along with, but that is me, it is my experience and it is my choice.  I also happen to quite like a few radios that aren't all that popular or held in that high of regard, but they are fun for me.  And some I just like to play with a bit to see what they are about.

    Let's reverse the Dayton **** - I've somehow upset you with my enthusiasm and I will buy the first round - but you need to tell me something of your radio experiences that is worth sharing - where I can learn, or enjoy or get insight from - before I cover that second round too..

    All the best, hope every day is a better one for you, and that we all have a terrific New Year!


    73

    Steve

    K9ZW


  • KY6LA_Howard
    KY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2014
    I would love to join the FREE **** Society
  • Jim Gilliam
    Jim Gilliam Member
    edited May 2015
    I would love to spring for the free ****.
  • Walt - KZ1F
    Walt - KZ1F Member ✭✭
    edited November 2016
    Free **** for everyone. Or maybe just the three of us, unless of course, others opt in as well. How many nights is Dayton? We could have a designated buyer per night.
  • KY6LA_Howard
    KY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2014
    As per my usual Dayton trips, I have booked a block of rooms at a group rate at the Miamisburg Doubtletree Inn... Our rate includes a Hospitality Suite... we arrive Thursday PM and depart Sunday.   I still have a couple of rooms in the block that are not yet taken... 
  • Charles - K5UA
    edited March 2015
    Several comments on verticals: 1. Efficiency of a vertical is proportional to radiation resistance of the vertical radiator divided by the radiation resistance plus the ground resistance. Over an infinite copper plate the ground resistance would be zero, and the efficiency would be 100%. Even with 120 radials there would be a few ohms of ground resistance, but the effeciency would be very high with a quarter-wave radiator of about 37 ohms radiation resistance. I.e., 37 ohms divided by 37 ohms + 3 ohms = about 92% efficiency. Not only is such a vertical efficient, the maximum take off angle is virtually zero degrees with very little high angle radiation.. 2. At low take-off angles necessary for DXing, a dipole for 80 meters would have to be 220 high to compete with an elevated vertical 10 feet high with two elevated radials 10 feet high. Don't believe it? Model it in EZNec and see for your self. How about the 80 meter dipole at 66 feet ( a scenario more likely for the average ham ). The elevated vertical at low angles way outperforms the dipole. If you want to ragchew with your local buddies on 80 meters, use the cloud warming dipole at 66 feet. 3. The base loaded verticals that are significantly less than a quarter-wave long have only a few ohms of radiation resistance. They can be efficient with a very good radial system. With a poor radial system the efficiency will be very low , and the take-off angle will be much higher, with less gain. 4. It's all a matter of wavelength. On 20 meters and above, one can get a horizontally polarized dipole or yagi a wavelength off the ground for a modest investment. Below 20 metres (70 feet), towers get pretty expensive and antennas get pretty big. The vertical, especially the elevated vertical, is a lot of DX **** for the buck.

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