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Key Clicks Video

Steve N4LQ
Steve N4LQ Member ✭✭
edited June 2020 in SmartSDR for Windows
Please note key clicks TRANSMITTED by a 6300 and being monitored on another receiver. DO NOT set your delay less than 9 otherwise you will be sending these clicks.

Comments

  • K6OZY
    K6OZY Member ✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Well done!  Unrelated, could I suggest that you increase the audio level in your videos?  I've watched most of them and the audio levels are consistently very low.
  • Steve W6SDM
    Steve W6SDM Member ✭✭
    edited September 2015
    Great job on the video.  I am not sure why anyone wound want that short of a delay to start with - QSX, sure, but that's almost full duplex.
  • Sergey R5AU
    Sergey R5AU Sergey Member ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Well, i guess in case we are talking concerning P-i-N diode swtiching circuit, clicks should be removed definitely
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Steve,
    I think there is some confusion about the delay settings since there are 2 different delays.  

    - The TX delay on the setting screen for use with some amplifiers
    - The CW delay in the CW panel or on the CWX setting panel

    And they both seem to cause different issues at certain values.  

    - Clicks from certain values of the CW delay per your video
    - Bad CW from certain values of the TX delay as described in one of the other posts.
    https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/bad-keying-v1-3

    Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
    al (at) nn4zz (dot) com


    image
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Steve,
    I did some experimenting to see if I could duplicate the results of your video.  I noticed on my 6700 that with the CW Delay set to a low value I can hear a mechanical relay (antenna switching ?).  Note the sidetone is off so I can hear the relay.   I don't have a second receiver monitoring the signal but the panadapter shows the same signatures as in you video. 

    As I increase the delay the signature cleans up and the relay sound stops.  It seems the CW RF clicks may be related to the relay operation.   Did you notice the relay clicking also?  

    One difference here is that it cleans up at a setting of about 60 instead of 10 as in your video.  This may be related to the model or it may just be there are differences among the radios.  It would be interesting to hear from others.   By the way the relay clicking is only associated with the CW delay regardless of the value I have for the TX delay setting.

    Just for reference, I normally set my TX delay to 15 for my amplifier and the CW delay to about 200 - 300 for semi breakin and don't see any problems at those settings.  

    Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
    al (at) nn4zz (dot) com



     
  • Steve N4LQ
    Steve N4LQ Member ✭✭
    edited September 2015
    60 instead of 10 for the 6700....Sounds like the 6300 has more capable QSK or it's the individual radio as you mentioned. 
    TX Delay needs cleaning up. It should not be used at all if the CW Delay is set below a certain point because CW Delay will not allow the radio to complete the characters. These need to be coordinated i.e. If my CW Delay is set for 10 and my TX Delay for 15 I will be transmitting choppy characters.
  • Steve N4LQ
    Steve N4LQ Member ✭✭
    edited September 2015
     If it can't send good code at Delay = 0 then it shouldn't allow you to choose 0 regardless of how we feel about QSK however this does bring the Flex down with lesser products. 
  • Paul Christensen, W9AC
    Paul Christensen, W9AC Member ✭✭
    edited February 2017

    Something went seriously awry in this last SSDR update.  Here's what I'm finding on my 6700.  The trailing CW waveform is being truncated as if RF hot-switching is occurring. 

    Recall that SSDR uses three CW waveform "break points."  The first occurs when CW Speed is set between 5-19 WPM.  The second change occurs when CW Speed is between 21-29 WPM.   The last waveform change occurs when CW Speed is 30 WPM and faster.  These changes occur when using either the internal CW keyer or an external CW keyer.  The change is wholly dependent on the SSDR CW Speed slider and NOT the keying speed of an external keyer.

    N4LQ is right in that the problem occurs at different CW Delay, CW Speed, and TX Delay settings.   It's difficult to gauge if the transmitted RF is being cut off or that the cut-off is occurring in DSP.  Possibly the CW side-tone frequency issue is indirectly related.  The two problems should be corrected simultaneously.

    Until it's proven that hot-switching of an external amp is not occurring, I would be extremely cautious when using an external amp with the Flex 6K series at this time, especially in CW and fast digital modes.  I would not use the two together unless an external oscilloscope is used to confirm the quality of the transmitted waveform. 

    This is a very high priority problem.

    Paul, W9AC

  • Steve N4LQ
    Steve N4LQ Member ✭✭
    edited September 2015
    Is FLEX looking into this problem? Haven't seen any response.
    Steve
  • Eric-KE5DTO
    Eric-KE5DTO Administrator, FlexRadio Employee admin
    edited February 2017
    Yes. Significant work has been invested since this was reported and we have made significant progress. The fixes will need to go through the Alpha test round. More to report once that has happened.
  • Paul Christensen, W9AC
    Paul Christensen, W9AC Member ✭✭
    edited June 2020
    Eric,

    I'm not a Flex alpha tester, but I'll be happy to make oscilloscope timing measurements similar to what I posted earlier if that's of any interest to you.

    Paul, W9AC

  • Steve-N5AC
    Steve-N5AC Community Manager admin
    edited June 2020
    Paul,

    I'll send you an Alpha version tomorrow to test out if you have time.

    Thanks,
    Steve
  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    A little OT, Paul, but what scope/program do you use?  I am getting deeper into parts of the hobby that I need to acquire one, but don't have a bottomless wallet for that purpose.  Any recommendations for a good triggered scope at a budget price?
  • Steve N4LQ
    Steve N4LQ Member ✭✭
    edited September 2015
    It's wise to let Paul test anything CW related. Thanks.
    Steve N4LQ
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Ken,
    Also looking at getting another scope,  I used to have access to them at work.  You can certainly get some good Tektronix scopes used in the $300 range.   This is the model I'm looking at and discussed it with Paul a while back.  It's 4 channel so I can monitor before and after my amplifier as well as the key closures.  It's on the xmas list.... 

    http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ds1104z/

    image
    Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
    al (at) nn4zz (dot) com


  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Thanks, Al.  The Rigol looks very nice, (drool) but still a little above my pay-grade. I have blown most of my radio budget on the 6500 and a tower/antenna that is still being built.  But I can start saving!...
  • Tom K3TF
    Tom K3TF Member
    edited December 2016
    Hi Steve,

    I am the guy that sent back the DOA 6500 with the truncated trailing edge of the CW waveform at any delay setting. 

    The new 6500 works fine as long as I keep the delay at around 10 or higher. I set the internal keyer to  60 wpm so that I get the faster 3ms Tr and Tf. I am guessing your using a PIN Diode on the xmit side with a fast relay for the rcvr which is fine. 

    I run a QRQ sked nightly at around 60 wpm with my QRQ friends the 6500 has been running fine here for the last week. Weighting sounds fine at these speeds too, most other rigs will not sound correct in QSK mode at these speeds. Typically I have to add about 1ms to the keying weighting with other rigs. 

    Setup is CW Type along with a Win Key USB on a quad core PC into the front panel key jack. 

    If you want I would be happy to test an alpha version with the QRQ gang. 

    It would be great to improve the QSK receive return speed if possible using a single antenna. It is not bad now. 

    I did speak with Greg about doing this.

    Thanks for all the CW effort your group has put into this fine rig. 

    73,
    Tom
    K3TF...........


  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Hi Ken,
    Paul can recommend some of the Tek scopes that you can get used and are really perfectly fine.   You also can save if you only need 2 channels.  

    I'm sure others can chime in as well on other models.

    Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
    al (at) nn4zz (dot) com

  • Paul Christensen, W9AC
    Paul Christensen, W9AC Member ✭✭
    edited November 2016

    > "A little OT, Paul, but what scope/program do you use?"

    I'm using an Agilent DSO-X-3024A with the MSO upgrade and 16-channel logic analyzer.  You do not need anything like that.  Quite honestly, neither do I but it's nice to have.  I also use a Tektronix 2465B and on the shack desktop, a SC504 in a TM series frame. 

    The Rigol Z series came out late last year and it's a great value.  The DS1104Z has 4 channels, making it ideal for timing measurements.  It also has a variable-gradient display that does a reasonably good job of mimicking a phosphor CRT.  The variable gradient displays will soon become standard on all digital storage oscilloscopes.  I would not buy one without it, especially when taking modulation measurements.   

    On the analog side, it's tough to beat the old Tektronix 465 and 475 series.  It should not take long to find one in excellent condition for USD $200 or less. 

    Paul, W9AC


  • Tom K3TF
    Tom K3TF Member
    edited March 2017
    Ken,

    When I took pictures of the CW envelope and sent them to Flex I used my old trusty Tektronix 465. For modulated signals like AM, SSB, and CW I prefer the older analog type scopes. They tend to have more Z-axis or intensity modulation which helps when looking closely at a modulated signal. If you can find an older tek scope for under $100 that is a gud deal. Just make sure the CRT works. We do not manufacture them any more. 465, 475, 455, 453 (make sure bandswitch is good), Stay away from 432 and 434's (bad power supply design). 

    73,
    Tom
    K3TF............

  • Steve-N5AC
    Steve-N5AC Community Manager admin
    edited December 2016
    Yes, Tom, I'll shoot it to you as well.  Thanks for offering!
  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    If you need another alpha tester for CW or other functions, I have most of the weekend off. But I also understand about "too many cooks...."

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