This forum is morphing into a real battleground

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This latest release of SSDR V3 has certainly ignited some tense exchanges.  As I've said before, with each release the division between satisfied and dissatisfied customers is becoming more clearly defined.

I think the latest frustration is because V3 seems to have been designed with a small segment of the customer base in mind. That is not sitting well with those wanting more bug fixes addressed that were introduced in prior releases or those not interested in allowing other ops to use their radios.

Also stirring the pot is this new feature that does an auto save of TX/RX settings. I think this was a very bad idea and while I'm not planning on upgrading to V3 for a number of reasons I am concerned this feature will carry over to V4 and that would present a problem for my configuration. 

A suggestion: When designing and testing new releases keep in mind that not every Flex owner has a PGXL or fully automated station. Case in point: How does MultiFlex work with a station comprised of a manual amp, manual tuners, etc.? One op stated that in order to use this they would have to shut down their manual amp and run at only 100 watts. That's a big price to pay for this feature. Was this scenario considered during the design phase?

Flex, I really like your radios but you need to listen more to what the majority of your customers want and not just deciding what you're going to give us in future releases.

So much for my ranting. Now cue the cheerleaders.
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Pat N6PAT

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Posted 4 days ago

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Bill -VA3WTB

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Pat, along these lines, can I get your take on a question I have? I ask because even though I may not agree with all you comments I do respect your thinking.

I asked this somewere today but I don't think anyone picked up on it.
Maybe others can chime in as well?


Looking at the features of V2 and now V3 it seems clear Flex thinks big. The features have set Flex apart from the compition, and now with Multi Flex they moved even further, no other radio does this. It seems to be the direction they are looking to.

Question:
Lets just say Flex decides to change things up, work on features that the main stream customer wants as we say.

What features do you think would be best while still being a feature other radios don't have? And still sets Flex apart from the crowd.
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Burt Fisher

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Bill what features do I want? How about features that worked in 2.39? Features in other radios such as Elecraft KX3 like copying CW and sending and receiving digital modes, in the Icom 7300 setting viewable band segments, and warming up faster than a few minutes? 
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Pat N6PAT

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Flex radios are already set apart from other radios by their very nature.

You say that MultiFlex is the direction Flex will continue to look at. How does that work with manual configurations like yours? You stated that it would force you to shut down your tube amp and run at 100 watts. Is that an enhancement or a step back? How many other Flex owners are in the same boat?

At this point before suggesting any new features I would suggest undoing the most recent feature of auto saving TX/RX settings or at least provide an option to disable it much like disabling spots.

Next on the list would be to address the numerous bugs that others have pointed out prior to V3. Any bugs from prior releases that others have paid for should be the top priority that should be addressed before additional releases are offered. . Otherwise it gives the impression that once Flex has your $$ you become less of a priority than attracting new customers.  

Regarding future features: Flex should solicit input from the entire customer base and compile a list of all requested features sorted in order of number of requests for all to see. That would ensure a greater acceptance of the next release and minimize the complaints.

Right now I feel that I have no input whatsoever and am faced with a "if you don't like it that's too bad" situation. What some software engineer at Flex likes may not appeal to me or others.


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Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer

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Can you tell me what kind of public input is there with any other manufacturer, or what direct line of input have you had in any other radio design prior to release. Because we all know once it's release unless it's an SDR there are virtually no updates, other  radios are the same 5 years later as it was coming off the production line.
You may feel you have no input and we can do nothing about that, but I have read many times here that they read and listen. Just because your particular idea didn't get used doesn't mean they are not listening.
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W2NER

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What does you comment have to do with the subject matter in this post?  This has to do with issues that should have been avoided.  This software was working great with regards to profiles, now its nothing but issues.  stay focused ....
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Kevin N4TT, Elroy

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Elecraft
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John N6NTM

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Oh brother.....I’m I the only Flex owner who absolutely loves there radio ?........why would Flex try to make 7000 complainers happy....when all they do is complain about anything they can come up with.....what do you think about Flex thinking about being innovative Ahead of anyother radio so they can make some duckets......and maybe find some appreciateov customers that don’t snivel so much....my V.3 works great.....give them some time....the third party apps will catch up.....boy this next generation humans got to have everything NOW....RIGHT Now......kick back.....at this point the rest of the radio community here’s all this complaining and nobody will buy a flex.....but that figures....nobody can appreciate what they have.....that’s todays world........I say GO FLEX..
THANK YOU FOR THE BEST RADIO IVE EVER OWNED........KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK....N6NTM
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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AMEN BROTHER
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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To clear something up. Ever since Flex introduced Smart Link in V2 I do not have my amp and external tuner in line because the person using my radio can not tune them. This has nothing at all to do with V3.

Pat, only did you come close to answering my question near the very end of you comment. Then you didn't.

So again people want a say? how would you answer that?
What future features would you select that would still allow Flex radios do things others can't?
(Edited)
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Pat N6PAT

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Bill,

I am not going to reply to you or some of the other individuals any longer. Your attempt to bait me has failed. I'm sorry but I do not subscribe to your blind loyalty to Flex. I like my radio but have issues with the software releases .

Until such time as an ignore button is introduced to this forum I will have to engage my "manual" ignore button.

Have a Flexcellent day
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Bill -VA3WTB

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You are so full of anger, I'm sorry for that,,this was not my intent at all. Respect is not mutual it seems.
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Kevin N4TT, Elroy

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I love the radio. I don't like the software. Flex has the radio and the software locked down to changed and undocumented APIs and there isn't a single incentive for anyone to design an alternative to SSDR. So many talented developers out there.

The radios are wonderful ignoring fans, GPS going off line, occasional bricking, multi-function button on the front that doesn't do many functions, TFT display that isn't very informative. Typical hardware stuff I think.

73,
Kev N4TT
(Edited)
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Kevin N4TT, Elroy

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In an attempt to answer Bill's question (I'll regret this), I don't think the the thing that causes people to buy a Flex are the little things that others can't do. I think it is the promise of what SDR can be and Flex is the one company that has seriously taken up that challenge. Spending time on fixing things or adding features desired by the current customer base wouldn't be the cause of Flex's demise. In fact, it might even increase support from the current user base.

As for what features are desired?
  • Al has posted many times how to see them right here in this forum. Oldest "no status" feature request goes back 5 years with the latest comment on that one only two months ago. With 79 me toos and five years of life it seems worthy of consideration.
  • Howard, four years ago, asked for some sort of visual aid for AGC-T. 
  • There's also requests for improvements to APF, NB, RX filters, NR, recording looping options and heck, even color choices for meter backgrounds.
And somehow, someone decided the most requested feature was multiflex? You don't see this as odd at all? I mean, odd in the sense that there's this documented list in a community they created of things that have bothered people for five years and they come up with multiflex? And then exacerbate the problem by adding an undocumented and non-backwards compatible API?

Be reasonable. If an Icom owner joined this group to expound on the virtues of Icom and that we're all dummies for buying Flex I'd be on the front line of defending my purchases. But we are all talking about the same piece of hardware and software and, from my perspective, I only see two parts of the argument.

  1. Those that expect more and want to be listened to. They demand old bugs be addressed and open dialog with Flex about new features. They submit bug reports and feature requests knowing they'll be slammed by the community and ignored by the company yet they keep trying to get attention to their issues.
  2. Those that believe Flex has all the answers and some day we may all see the big picture. But for now, we have to have faith and bask in the mysteries that are Flex.
Think of it this way... there are many hams out there that are not using Flex and are still somehow having the times of their lives with what they have. They see no compelling reason to join the Flex bandwagon and remote access or multi-flex isn't attracting them. They twist knobs, flip switches, rotate antennas and make the same darn contacts you and I make regardless of the position on the mis-used Sherwood.

I, for one, would like to have a say in the future. Unfortunately, that seems to be locked up by a certain group of insiders.

73,
Kev N4TT
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Scott Russell - N1SER

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Kevin, that was extremely well said and I think you've captured the essence of those in the #1 category.

I think in the end those of us #1's all really want Flex to be the best there is and even though it seems to some that we're complaining it's not really that. It's just that we also see the big picture and in that big picture Flex can be a lot more than it currently is and we get frustrated that we don't seem to really have an ear in with Flex. They have this community, we all talk to them at our local fests, we talk to them for customer support... but we get a different vibe when it comes to what is newly offered in software.

In the end we're just as in love and passionate about our radios, we just believe (and hope) there can be so much more.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Scott, I really agree with you. I hope many things can be further worked on as well, but I do have a good understanding about what Flex is dealing with and it is a balancing act.
I wonder if you ever saw the long comment Gerald wrote explaining the process of deciding what features that can be worked on. And there are many factors involved.

Even Gerald has a list that he wants and can't get them done, he says.

I know I come across as a Flex fan boy blinded, all I'm trying to do is keep things fair and trying to help correct misinformation. Perhaps I try too hard,,,my bad. I too have wishes, many have been talked about here. 

One thing is, I think Flex made a mistake not commenting more on the community, I know they moved Tim and understand why, and they now have Mike here and he has been doing a wonderful job.This community is just too busy not to have someone here all the time. I think this is a cause for some frustration as well.
(Edited)
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Scott Russell - N1SER

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Hey Bill, no I haven't actually seen the post by Gerald other than maybe someone posting it in a reply somewhere. See, that's good info that should be a sticky at the top of this community so all can find it and read it and know where (at least) Gerald is coming from. There is too much discussion and history on the community to effectively search and find it all. A lot seems to be buried in replies to replies... haha

I think I've read enough of your posts to now understand where you're coming from. I don't think you're a fan boy, just seem to be doing what most of us want, keep things fair and try and put out correct info. And hope that somehow some of our wishes get picked up by Flex and added.

Yeah, this would be a full time job for someone to moderate and comment. It seems that Get Satisfaction would have other settings and tools to help in that area. I'm not familiar with it to know if they do or not but I'm sure the community pages could be setup with other options (like blocking... hahah) that would make it a better place and easier to us to get our thoughts to Flex.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Scott, thanks, I have the same problem when I search the data base in order to help answer someones concerns. I can't always find the comments from Flex I'm looking for, so what I do is post a response from Flex that I remember and being correct.

Another intersting thing Gerald said is that when working on bug fixes or features, that work is always fluid and there are many moving parts to them.
Even when they make their best plans sometimes things have to change, perhaps changing a feature for a different one, or a set of bugs for others. Sometimes things crop up that need attention and plans need to change at the last moment.

Because SSDR is so complicated, they must consider what can be worked on and how long will that take keeping in mind people want the updates in a timely matter.
From now to then, can they fit all that in an update, is there time?

I thought that was interesting.
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Gary L. Robinson

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I love my radio (6400) but I also realize I am NOT the target customer that Flex is writing new features for.  I am not a contester or major DXer - but rather a casual DXer and a rather windy ragchewer.  If they worked on features I might like they would probably lose money.  So, I can't entirely fault them.

And, yet I still love my radio and don't see anything else on the market I am interested in to replace it.

Having said that,  I would like to see the API beefed up so (less than seriously professional) programmers can add their own features without having to do too much low level programming.  Perhaps some high level objects - for instance, a simple panadapter or simple waterfall object that could allow a level of customization.

I don't expect that to happen either but I will stick with my Flex radio until something else makes more sense.  And I am not sure that will happen any time  soon either hihi

---Gary WB8ROL   
(Edited)
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Mark - WS7M

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I have not been involved with FRS that long.  But even since my entrance in 2015 every single release has generated a flurry of activity.  Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

When a feature people really like is introduced people love it but even then, as was the case with Smartlink there are those that get mad because FRS didn't fix the one bug that is bugging them.

FRS is targeting software upgrades and releases at what the community, as a whole, is asking for.  They do have a list.  Somethings have been on that list for a very long time so they may not appear visible to people but FRS had the plan.

I think MULTI-Flex was one of these.  Back in 2015 I chatted on this very form with the idea of being able to share a slice.   I thought it would be very cool to be able to get one of Howard's 8 slices some day so I could use his monster antenna for receive.

Well Flex with 3.x did that and more.  Not only do you get a slice but you get a pan and radio control to go along with it!

Certainly, this will not appeal to the guys that use their radios like an updated Icom.  They are always in their shack right in front of the radio.  Nothing wrong with that mind you but MULTI-Flex probably would not appeal to them.  That is why 3.x is not required.  You can buy it or not.

But no one should get angry because FRS did MULTI-Flex instead of perhaps enhancing the DSP on slices.  The decision on what to do for each release resides completely with FRS.  The only way you are gong to influence them is to be professional, nice and politely request the fix/enhancement over and over.

When I first got a peek at 3.x and MULTI-Flex I was thinking... what in the heck will I use this for?  But as an alpha tester I had to pay to play so I did.  Now that I have it I am finding all kinds of uses for it!

Example:

I often leave my radio on with SmartSDR and a skimmer running say on 40m.

When I wanted to run my radio from work I had to quit the other instance, run my new one, do a qso then getting the skimmer set back up was difficult.

Now that has all changed.  I can startup SmartSDR at work and become the second client.  

I can also run SmartSDR on my computer and on my Maestro at the same time.  Totally great.

So I wish that people would realize that they have a choice.  If they really don't want 3.x, don't buy it.   If you want to support FRS like I do even though I might not be a strong case for MULTI-Flex then buy it.  You might find, like I did, that you really like it.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Mark, are you having problems with the auto save feature for the TX and Mic panels as some others are?
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Harold Rosee

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I would pay their $200 if they would just fix the memories where when you sort them they are saved that way just like in PowerSDR.  There are also other quick fixes or enhancements they could do but it appears they are doing one big thing each release and that's basically it.

I am still on Version 1 and plan on staying there until they come out with something that is for everybody.  IMO they would sell a lot more copies.

How many people actually will need Multiflex?  I know I won't.  I also don't see why Flex will not tell us what's going to be in the next release.  My take is they are running by the seat of their pants and have no idea what a final release will look like until they are there. 

Harold
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W2NER

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There's another feature or change they made.  In TX or MIC profiles is a button that says "reset" what the hell is that for?  I tested it and it creates a additional profile named "Default" so then you have 2 profiles named default.  Additionally you can't remove any of them.  OMG flex, are your software engineers drinking on the job?
(Edited)
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Gary NC3Z

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W2NER, I just tried this and now I also have multiple Defaults that cant be deleted.
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Joe N3HEE

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RTFM !  Oh wait, there isn't one.  Just couldn't help myself :)
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Eric - KE5DTO, Official Rep

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I'm not going to wade in too deep here, but I wanted to clear up a couple of things:

1. Our multiple APIs are documented.  You can find our ethernet API on our wiki here: wiki.flexradio.com.  FlexLib, our C# library that sits on top of that ethernet API can be found here: https://www.flexradio.com/downloads/flexlib_api_v3-0-19-zip/.

2. FlexLib has high level Panadapter and Waterfall objects that can be used to make displays.

3. We are paying attention.  Both here on the community and elsewhere.  You won't see us post all that often, but we do pay attention and we truly do care about our customers and what they are saying.
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W2NER

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Eric, these profile issues are a real big problem and I hope flex is going to make this a priority to fix and not have us wait months for this to be rectified. 
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Scott Russell - N1SER

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Thanks Eric to #3. I'm glad you posted that.
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Ken - NM9P, Elmer

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Despite all the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth about why coveted feature "X" "Y" or "Z" was not included in the initial release of V.3.0.19, what we have witnessed was the partial fulfillment of what has been the original "dream" of the 6000 Series since the very beginning.

The 6000 series has been marketed not just as an excellent radio, but as a "radio server" for many years.  This concept is a new thing in the amateur radio world and has taken quite a bit of time for people to begin to understand and appreciate it -- a device that "serves" the radio spectrum to a multiplicity of client devices in different locations and situations.  Now with V.3.X the "Server" is able to connect to multiple clients at the same time.  No one else is doing this like Flex!  And it has taken a lot of symbolic blood, sweat, and tears from the programmers and alpha teams to accomplish it.

Yes, there are unfinished pieces to the puzzle that have frustrated users along the way. 

There are a few functions that do not function as some users expect them to function.  (i.e. NR, NB, ANF, PTT on CW (though there is an adjustment work-around that can help greatly until such time that it may be revisited by Flex)

There are some areas where there are differences of opinion as to how some functions SHOULD function, or if a function is really needed.  (i.e. saved or on-the-fly changes to TX and Mic Profiles; onboard decoding of CW, RTTY, or PSK31  vs. 3rd party applications to do the same thing) 

There are areas where some users have not been able to appreciate how differently the 6000 works and have not been able to make the adjustment to "drive" this radio properly in order to get maximum performance out of it.  (i.e. not setting the AGC-T properly; expecting WNB or NB to be effective against lightning static; or expecting "true" FSK when it has been demonstrated that there is no effective difference with the 6000 using a properly adjusted digital "afsk" routine, since it is all digitally constituted within the rig, even when using programs like MMTTY)

There are areas where some users refuse to utilize a myriad of 3rd party add-ons and other software to accomplish what they want to do because "I want my radio to do this by itself!"  (i.e. Digital modes, Squelch, voice keying,etc.) 

And there are some areas where some users are expecting things to function in ways that are simply unreasonable or impossible.  (For example, Q:  "why can't I listen to 160 and 6 meters at the same time with two different antennas on my 6300/6400/6500 when it has two antenna ports?  A: Because there is only ONE SCU on that rig and it can only receive on one antenna at the same time.)  or expecting to use Flex's industry-leading "Brick Wall 50 Hz CW filters, but with NO latency.

Many have talked about being frustrated that they can no longer use features on V.2.4.9 that they were able to use on a previous version.  But that is the beauty of SDR.  If the additional features of an update do not outweigh the "damage" caused by an unfortunate bug, you are not locked in to the newer version, you can always roll it back and wait until the next version fixes it.  (V.2.5 should fix many of the things that got "broken" in 2.4.9  and it will be free to all V.2 licencees)  

The idea that Flex doesn't care about the "regular" users and only caters to the "power contester" is any easy mud-fling.  It is as unhelpful and inaccurate as saying that Flex doesn't receive any input from dedicated CW contesters/DXers.  They do.  Lots of it.  That some users' favorite issues have not been solved to their satisfaction is unfortunate, but this is a very complicated machine and changing one little thing because "it's just a matter of programming" is not as simple as some people think.  And comparisons to software updates on digital cameras, DVD players, and even the previous Flex gear (or other brands) that run PowerSDR are not equivalent comparisons.  

Some of my own observations and opinions:  (Purely my own speculation based upon public statements at Dayton 2018 and other public statements on the community)

1) Now that 3.0.19 has been released, they will begin planning how to back-port the bug fixes into V.2.5 so that those who choose not to upgrade to 3.0 will benefit from another free update that fixes some of the things that got broken in V.2.4.9.

2) I anticipate that there will be additional work done on latency, DSP performance - perhaps even some new "science projects that will be helpful, and CW timing, GUI, and API interfaces that will help solve some of the continuing small but irritating idiosyncrasies of this platform.  When?  I don't know.  There is a lot that can be done.  There is a long list, but the process is not as simple as greasing the squeakiest wheels first.  There is a lot that can be done, but getting the biggest bang for the buck takes careful planning.

3) I anticipate that there will be additional improvements, additions, and point-releases to V.3.X.X that will add to the value of what has been released.  If you find them interesting, download them.  If not, don't.  

4) No matter what Flex does, there will be several groups of hams who will continue to register their dissatisfaction:  a) those with legitimate issues who have grown impatient with the speed of forthcoming solutions.  b) those who cannot or will not adjust to this platform and learn how to drive it the way it needs to be driven rather than the way they want to drive it, c) those who have unreasonable or impractical expectations of this platform and refuse to accept that what they want is never going to happen, d) those who simply enjoy fighting, trolling, or churning the waters for whatever reason, e) those who like to fight with people in groups a-d for whatever reason.


Let me propose some principles that my dear mother always taught me:

Let's converse with respect.  Everyone deserves to be treated with respect, even in disagreement.

Let's not assign motives to others - we don't know which of the above categories to which they belong.  

Never ASSUME what someone meant.  Ask them.  (You know what happens when you ASSUME...)

Ask questions designed to understand, rather than to trap or stab at someone.

If someone asks you a question because your statement is unclear,(what do you want the radio to DO?),  answer it simply but specifically.  Good information is better than bad assumptions,  

Also, gentlemen...If some new person asks a question that you have answered multiple times, don't treat them like your stubborn 6 year-old that you have told a thousand times what the answer is.  They weren't here for the past five years.  If you can't answer with grace and patience, DON'T.

Ask, "Is my purpose to help someone else, or just to vent my feelings and dump on someone else?"

This is a hobby/service.  It is supposed to be fun. 
And we are all supposed to play nicely with the other children.

I hope we can all live into the ideal.
Have a wonderful day.  and make someone else's day wonderful, too.

Ken - NM9P
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W2NER

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Hey Ken, do you work for flex?  The point to all this " weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth" as you call it is about features that worked and worked well in the past version.  NOW it causes nothing but headaches and very simply your missing the point.  Oh, and don't post on this forum to preach how we should act or not act.  We are posting our issues, get over it. 
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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A prime example Ken, Lol
Nice read.
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Ken - NM9P, Elmer

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The OP made the statement "This forum is morphing into a real battleground"  I figure that opened the door to a comment about proper forum decorum.  It that offends you, I can't help that.  Common courtesy never went out of style, except when people hide behind their keyboards and pretend that there are no rules or expectations of proper behavior.  (They have been published on this community multiple times.)

I have no problem with people posting their issues and frustrations with some of the features that got "broken" and others that have not been implemented yet, or have taken longer than they wanted.  I have a list of my own, which I have published multiple times.  There is plenty of room for intelligent, helpful discussion.  I have done plenty of it for six years on this forum, on Facebook, and privately in the Alpha Team reflector.

My "problem" is when individuals decide to make accusations and statements that questions the intelligence, motives, or values of others in the forum, or in the management of the company. And when those who disagree with them become just as belligerent it isn't helpful.  When the Haters and the Fan-boys start fighting each other, rather than speaking specifically about issues, adjustments, or work-arounds in order to help people operate their radios, then both sides have gotten off track.  

This is a User Community designed to help one another, not the typical internet forum that appeals to the least common denominator of human interaction.  We can be better.  We can all "get over it."

Ken - NM9P
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Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer

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Hey Ken, all you can do is keep trying, your positive message will reverberate to many. There are those of us who appreciate your posts. After all look at the title of the thread, its bound to attract those who want to battlee. Sorry people, you can't have it both ways, meaning, you can't post your complaints call out Flex, then complain and make accusations when someone on the other side posts and calls you out. It's the kind of behavior we see in politics and it stinks.

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Dave - W6OVP

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> When the Haters and the Fan-boys start fighting

That is a classic example of "do as I say but not as I do" and is extremely offensive. This is not a political campaign where that sort of inflammatory rhetoric is expected. You should be ashamed of yourself!
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Kevin N4TT, Elroy

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Actually, presenting two sides of a problem... really focusing on the problem, would be fine. But then it turns into the slinging and it all goes down hill.

"Hey... I would like this to be different because I would use it that way"
"Well really, I would like it to remain the same because I use it this way."

Instead:

"Hey... I would like this to be different because I would use it that way."
"You're nuts."

You see the difference? Mike, you glided in here at the tail end as usual and threw more fuel on the fire and then feel righteous about your position? You never even addressed the issues. Credibility still counts for something and some have gone bankrupt.

Out.

73,
Kev N4TT
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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@Dave... Ken is perhaps the most conciliatory person on this community.. In spite of your negative interpretation, Ken's message was positive and definitely NOT anything he should be ashamed of.
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Dave - W6OVP

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I suspect he didn't mean it the way he said it. But referring to those with a different viewpoint as "Haters" with a capital H is right out of the Liberal Political playbook we see every day on TV. It's over the line for this forum IMHO.
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Ken - NM9P, Elmer

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My purpose was not to call out one side or the other, but to appeal to both sides to be more civil.  I used the terms "Haters and Fan-Boys" intentionally because that is what I have heard both sides call each other.  I have called out BOTH behaviors in the past and will continue to do so when their behavior begins to become destructive to forum decorum.  Whenever I do, I try to be as calm and diplomatic as possible.  I have no shame in that.  

Nor do I wish to unleash a group of supporters or detractors to fight about this issue any longer.  I made my statements.  If you find them helpful. fine. If not, don't worry.  I will post no further on this thread.

Ken - NM9P
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Scott Russell - N1SER

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Ken, since you mentioned the camera comparison I feel obligated to reply because from this post I'm not sure you understand what was meant by the comparison.

It should be obvious to any one of us that you can't really compare a Flex 6000 series to a digital camera, they are two totally different types of technology. I could have compared the Flex to a $20k Tektronix Spectrum Analyzer but that wouldn't have been an equivalent comparison either. What you can compare is the type of update each piece of electronics received as a result of recent updates.

From a consumer point of view both Flex and Sony have released a new feature that no other company is doing. For Flex it's Multi Client, for Sony it's Animal Eye AF. Both are incredible new, complex and innovating features. As a consumer of both electronic device I simply found the Flex feature not applicable to my operating and from my perspective it seems to cater to a smaller subset of users. Where Sony Animal Eye AF, while I totally understand that not every person that has that camera are going to praise Sony for a totally new feature and not 100% of their users will use the feature. It seems like a more rounded feature that many more people can take advantage of and can help improve the use of the camera.

As for adding the costs it was just a comparison to show two similar priced pieces of tech.

Also to clarify I have posted about why isn't the software free and after many good and bad replies I also posted about a discount for those who purchased a radio less than a year ago (not just since Oct) and that was met with the same kind of response we see in the last posts on the community. Either way I understand that Flex is not a Sony and software dev costs $$$. So to set the record I'm ok with purchasing upgrades, just as long as our voices are heard and that features that everyone can use are included. And of course bug fixes. We all want that.

The reason I purchased v3 even though there is not a lot in it for me, I am hopeful that one day there will be and I like to see what's new even if I can't really use it. That gives me the advantage of actually using the feature and knowing how it works so I can make informed questions, complaints, suggestions... you name it.

I totally agree with your first 3 statements at the end of your post and I think I fall into the 4.a category in the fourth statement.

The whole 'radio server' thing is not that impressive to me I guess since I've working the server admin field for over 20 years... seen that done that... not a new technology. I've also worked heavily with Citrix and thin clients. While a great concept it's not an end all be all and doesn't work well for every application and implementation. That's a whole other story... haha

Anyway good post. Get's us talking.

Scott N1SER
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Douglas Maxwell

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Ken, there is no PTT in CW work-around, your understanding of AGC-T is limited to your own single usage case. No one in the real world will accept using a receiver control to limit false hiss during transmit. Please respect other opinions that this 4 year old bug is a deal breaker for all serious CW contest ops and allow Flex to reassess the bug priority on this basis.
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Scott Russell - N1SER

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Kevin, you make the perfect point. I have in the past posted here and on the Facebook group thoughts and ideas only to be shut down by something like... "that feature (speaking of a different manf radio) doesn't work well and is not useful so I don't use it" and the vibe you get from that is that it's not worth bringing up to Flex because that particular person doesn't use it. Not to mention the inevitable... sell your flex and get a XXXX by others.

I wish everyone would stop that. It's like those that post about antenna issues and HOA's and then they get the 'well move then' or 'why did you buy in an HOA... you knew what you were getting into'. It's the same here. Not all of us are long time Flex users or forum participants. We don't know ALL the history and every little thing that was said here and there.

And by the way that type of statement about not 'I don't use it' (not word for word but concept) was said by Flex employee. How discouraging.

Let's just treat each other with respect and patients when some of the repeat topics come up. And don't chastise for asking "why" questions.
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Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer

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I see the difference. Because we don't agree exactly with your position, you revert to personal insults, all I see is the usual attempt to silence a difference of opinion thru personal attacks, where do we see this? Like Dave said, this plays out on Liberal media every day. And, yes those kind of tactics should be called out here. Don't like it, then don't use them.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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to me what sticks out in ken's comments are,

#1 That the features of V3 were indeed the dream of Flex from the very begining of the 6xxx series of radios, finally came around.

#2  V3 is not all done yet. What we have are just the building blocks of the features we now see. In  the next year or two we will see  Flex build on these things and work towards completion.
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Bob- W5TX

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Ken, as usual, calm and correct observations. This forum was and is intended to be a help and educational place where we can assist each other as users, pose ideas etc. if we have complaints about Flex products and or there performance as a company, their contact info is more direct. If you would desire an answer you might request that and hopefully if resources permit they will respond. Even if only to acknowledge the input.
All companies try at least to have a road map to get to their corparate goals and In the case of stuff like 6xxx , hardware and software implementations to achieve those goals. Guess that’s why we have Fords and Chevys. The other manufacturers would not be where they are today in SDR if not for Flex disrupting the market, be that good or bad.
Bob
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Bill -VA3WTB

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This community has become very divided, it's to bad. And I understand that people are trying to let Flex know their concernes and think they are not being heard, all the while others are defending Flex and creating even more anger. I must admit I have been one of them at times, and I'm sorry for that. My goal is not to make consernes not heard but to help some understand that their conserns are due to misinformation, and was of little help.

I have tried to reach out to some that have big problems with me, last night I had someone say they will block me and have nothing to say to me,,I tried, but nothing more I can do, See, divided.

I reached out to Scott here lately and find Scott to be not such a bad guy even though he is sometimes very aggresive...lol  But I'm trying.

Now, if more of us would try doing what I'm trying to do, maybe,,just maybe this community could become a fun place to hang again?

I challange you!!!
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Scott Russell - N1SER

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Hey Bill, you seem to be a good guy too... :) I'm sorry for any aggression towards you or anyone else and thank you for pointing that out. I think it's all been out of frustration with unhelpful answers and rude comments... in general. I think I have a better feel for this community now and have better realized there are pointed answers out there (even though hard to find) to a lot of these questions.

Let's all be kind to each other, respect and forgive if a question has been answered already. Let's make this a better place, a place it should be.

Scott N1SER
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Thank you Scott, one problem is not really knowing the other commenter, and not taking the time to. Perhaps taking their motives the wrong way. This community is very diverse indeed.
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Pat N6PAT

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I started this thread because I was repeatedly referred to as a "hater" just because I pointed out issues. Now the entire forum has erupted into heated arguments complete with name calling and personal attacks.

A big part of this is the manner in which these releases are being presented. I've asked several times why there is not a trial period for each release. It would go a long way in helping the situation.

Flex needs to get a handle on this or people may stop upgrading completely.
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HCampbell WB4IVF

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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Brilliant
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David Warnberg

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There is a very simple answer here... A new major release does not provide fixes to previous versions (i.e. V3 does not FIX issues in V2) but adds functionality.  From all my years working with software 99% of the time this is true.  Secondly, if you are looking for a "FIX" to a particular issue (keep in mind someones issue may be another persons "feature") WAIT for the FREE update, i.e. V2.4.9 to V2.5.1... it's unfortunate that people continually want the latest and greatest thing but continue to fail to realize that "NEW" software will inherently have issues, beta testers, quality control, etc... can not and will not find them all, too many different combinations and options out there.

It's just unfortunate that this topic has come up yet again and yet again folks are complaining because "I spent X number of dollars and my issue is still there"...

Let the flaming begin....

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Dave AA6YQ

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"A new major release does not provide fixes to previous versions (i.e. V3 does not FIX issues in V2) but adds functionality" is the result of suboptimal product management, not some immutable property of software engineering.

SmartSDR v3 should have been a free upgrade that included corrections to all reported defects, along with multiFlex tied to a license key that users could purchase if desired. That would have enabled SmartSDR v2 to be retired.
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David Warnberg

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"SmartSDR v3 should have been a free upgrade that included corrections to all reported defects, "

I respectfully disagree....    Did windows XP fix all the issues in windows 3.1?  Did windows 7 fix all the issues in windows XP?  I could go on and on with more then just picking on windows but I think you get my point..
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Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer

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Dave I also respectfully disagree. In a utopian society where we all have a guaranteed income, free cellphones, internet etc, bug free software may fit in there somewhere. I don't recall ever using any bug free software, ever. All software are not the same and I think the kind of software FRS is developing is far more complex with algorithms and thousands more lines of code and far more reaching than compared to say logging software. I say that with respect to all software developers having spent years doing it myself, I mean no insult or paint any picture that other software isn't a significant undertaking for an individual or small group but certainly not  on the same level of what is behind SmartSDR.
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I have a question.

Lets just say Flex decides to go back and fix all the things we all want fixed, BUT they stop adding any more features at all for now on. None.

That would leave Flex in the same place as almost all other companies, no updates or very few over years.

If our radios just got frozen and stay as they are right now. But with the wanted fixes.
Would you drop Flex and move on?
Or would you be satisfide with the product even without any more development.
(Edited)
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Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer

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Bill, I would be happy and quite disappointed as the same time. Yes that is possible but I would not forget what Flexradio has done for me. After not getting a license as a young teenager, decades went by until was attracted back to the hobby at a point in my life where I could. Researching and finding all theFlexRadio innovation was the final straw. Started with a 1000MP and a Kenwood 2000, then quickly jumped into the FlexRadio 5000A selling off the legacy radio to help finance Flex purchases. This was really a game changer for me. My DX hunt, country/band and DXCC excelled dramatically to where it sits today. OK, maybe I'm giving FlexRadio too much credit, but it's mastering the hunt with FlexRadio and my superior operating techniques, ha, ha.
From 5000A to 6500 then to 6700 and a 1500 to play with PowerSDR.
What is there to move on to?  If I loose interest in DX and some contesting and just rag chew, I would still prefer to operate with a FlexRadio.
(Edited)

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