So you are in Argentina? There's no TURF file for you. Screw you.

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Asked for a TURF file for Argentina (where I leave), offered to help on create one using local regulations and I get this answer for the "Customer Experience Manager"
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Gastonet

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  • mistreated

Posted 2 years ago

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Steve W6SDM

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There are FCC regulations that regulate what frequency range A radio can be made to transmit on. Radios that are outside these specifications cannot be sold in the United States. All manufactures follow the same FCC guidelines. Your issue isn't with Flex, it's with the FCC.
(Edited)
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Gastonet

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Can you explain then why there are TURF files for other countries?
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YV5WZ

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Hola Gastón!!!

Hey Steve!!

Como están?

Is not IARU 2 Band Plan same in Argentina and USA....as well is in Venezuela.....I guess it's not different

http://www.iaru.org/region-2.html

Am I right?  

I know there are local restrictions, but .....all in same IARU Band Plan....cause all our countries had signed commitment

Agree?  

Once I made same question to Tim and he explained very well about this issue.
I think Flex has wonderful and excellent customer service ( I guess you had not the chance to deal with other brands :-) )

I know it's a "pin in the ass" to start SmartSDR and watch other country name in Region box, but that's is not more than 1% of time you spend with your flex.

Remember Flex has dealer in other countries....I guess Brazil is gonna be first at South America, I'm sure Flex will edit TURF file for them cause they'll be authorized dealer...

meanwhile......Argentina or Venezuela wouldn't have an authorized dealer, we probably won't see our countries name in Region box.

A decir verdad con lo "rayado"del mío, eso no me quita el sueño  (creo que me entiendes)


Saludos


George, YV5WZ / PY3ZZZ
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Gastonet

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Nevermind George, el problema es que el Customer Experience Manager dijo: use it "as is". Eso es lo mas molesto de todo.
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YV5WZ

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Tranquilo Gastón.....recuerda que en idiomas la traducción literal no existe.  Y en el fondo no existe diferencia por lo que le comentaba de la reglamentación y el acuerdo de bandas de IARU. Yo he tenido la oportunidad de hablar con el directamente vía telefónica y es un gran gerente, muy amable y gentil. 

No te enojes por lo escrito, porque realmente es la diferencia de los idiomas y de la cultura a la cual pertenecemos....

Un abrazo,


George


PD: Por cierto cual es tu indicativo y que equipo compraste? yo tengo el 6300
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Gastonet

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LU5AGQ, un 6500 con un Maestro. Abrazo.
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Danny K5CG

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Hmmm. TURF file. I have no idea what that is and the only results from searching for it are Flex-3000/5000. Maybe this is a PowerSDR feature. Yet this post is tagged for SmartSDR, Flex Signature Series, Maestro. Enlighten me please.
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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A TURF file is a firmware file that controls the ability of a transmitter to transmit on bands specific to an individual country's regulations.
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Tim - G7GFW / F4VQP

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All the 6xxx Flex Radios use a Turf file. It is not dependent on the software used to drive the radio. I think that all the other models, past and present also use some form of TX inhibiting files.

I am sure that someone on this board has worked out how to change/edit the turf file to suit local operating allowed frequencies.

Flex are reluctant to publish details of the Turf file as people could then use it to transmit outside amateur bands.

As a company Flex, as someone else has pointed out, must operate with the FCC regs in the USA. In order to sell in other countries they have different Turf files for the 'main' regions in which the radios are sold.

I can understand why Flex need to do this and that in causes some people to become frustrated with Flex. Other manufacturers allow their radios to be 'wide banded' but I suspect that the FCC isn't very happy about it.

Tim
(Edited)
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Unlike the Ricebox manufacturers Flex is a USA company so they must be extra specially compliant with onerous US FCC regulations.
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Danny K5CG

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"Ricebox"? We all know what you mean, but isn't that a little lacking in decorum for an international forum?
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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A manufacturer can manufacture radio equipment for export that does not comply with FCC regs. For example, Ameritron sells export only versions of amplifiers with 10 metres enabled.  Even Flex sells radios that can transmit on 4 metres. 
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Gastonet

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Thanks Ria, finally someone understands my point. 
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Can you show me somewhere where the Argentine frequency regulations are? 

I cannot generate a TURF for you (I do not work for Flex) but I want to see if there are any "problematic" frequencies they may have issue, and any that are different from US allocations.

BTW I will be in Buenos Aires in February. Maybe I can get in a bit of operating while there. :)
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Danny K5CG

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As George previously pointed out, North and South America are both in IARU region 2 and have the same band plan, at least at the band edges. What could be the difference?
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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My guess is 60 metres. Some countries have additional/different channels and some like 9Y have a full frequency allocation (5.25-5.45MHz) with 1.5kW. Also only the USA restricts phone by law to certain sub-bands. Most other countries don't have any mode restrictions. Below 7100MHz is popular for 40m phone. 
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Alex - DH2ID, Elmer

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We Europeans have another problem: 5351.5 - 5366.5 is still not allowed in Germany, but take your Flex and drive over the border to the Netherlands or Belgium and you can transmit legally on 60m! What about the turf file, shouldn't it be installed according to your GPS position (only half joking)?
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Dan -- KC4GO

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Alex,
Guess you will need to spend $700 US on the GPS for your Flex  (Just joking) :) 
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Dan -- KC4GO

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Write a comment
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Dan -- KC4GO

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There are no Mode restrictions in the Flex US TURF file you can TX/RX any mode within the band edges if your TX bandwidth extends outside the edges the TX will be inhibited. The only issue may be the 60 meter issue that Ria pointed out.
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Gastonet

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Ok then. Ria, please find in this URL the main resolution for amateur radio in Argentina: http://www.enacom.gob.ar/multimedia/normativas/1998/Resolucion%2050_98.pdf please have in mind that was wrote in 1998, since then there was a lot of modifications, adds, etc.I'll more than happy to assist you if you come here. Just drop me an email whenever you want: gastonet@gmail.com
And yes Ria, 60 meters band will be able to be used by 2017.

For Danny, edges are not always the same, even being in the same IARU region there are some diferences between countries.
For example, in the US the 70cm band is from 420 to 430 and here is from 430 to 440.

Last but not least here we can use 11 meters band (CB or 27mhz whatever you want to call it) for 10 bucks a year.

73.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Yeah that 11 meter band is probably why they are reluctant.
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Steve W6SDM

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OMG, I can hear it now:  "Ten four good buddy, gotcha S9 on this here Flex 6700 radidio.  We're runnin' a full gallon on the Ahpha 9500, warming up that Moonraker on the roof. I monitor channels 2, 6, 8, 12, 15, 19, 29, and 40 all at the same time!  Lord, o' Mercy, this here software defined CB radio is downright amazin'."
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Gastonet

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Please, if you don't have nothing positive to contribute don't use this for trolling. You don't know nothing about me and even less for what is 11 meters used here.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I have no problem with the legal 11m argentine allocation. It is legal for you to use. Do understand though that the FCC takes a dim view of modified ham equipment for that band. This is probably what Flex is considering. Hopefully this will be resolved with technology to add this range for you while disabling it for USA users.

I'm not familiar with TURF files. Are they tied to a specific radio? Or can one be used on any radio? The latter can be problematic.
(Edited)
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Kevin WB4AIO

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In my opinion, it is NOT the responsibility of the manufacturer to restrict radios' transmit frequencies. It is the responsibility of the USER to obey the regulations. Just because it's EASIER to control a few manufacturers than it is to have a real enforcement department that can enforce the rules in the real world doesn't mean it is RIGHT to do so.

As far as I can tell, there is no FCC requirement that they do so, either. Tens of thousands of transceivers are sold without such hard-to-reverse firmware restrictions. It must be some "tacit understanding" "scratch-our-back-and-we'll-scratch yours" kind of thing, which I see as morally questionable.

These firmware restrictions cause nightmares for so many people worldwide. The other manufacturers who allow you to snip a diode or uncheck a box in software have it right.

If some people use baseball bats to break windows, those people need to be stopped and imprisoned if necessary. It would be preposterous for bat manufacturers to make their bats out of chewing gum (absent a pro ball employment contract) to "solve the problem" and save the government the "trouble" of dealing with vandals.
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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So you want the Government Agency populated by the gang that can't shoot straight to spend even more of my tax money to continue their ineffectual attempts to police the bands.

Instead of the simpler and much less expensive mechanism which is working well of having the manufacturers just build equipment that obeys the law.

Pretty obvious which way u r voting next month.
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Walt - KZ1F

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Huh??????
Howard, how do we get from a localization / internationalization issue to a far right distain for the center left?
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Kevin WB4AIO

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Quite the opposite, Howard. I want freedom to choose and decide and take responsibility for my acts. I don't want a government nanny (though I do want fair and strong radio "traffic cops" to prevent anarchy) -- and I also don't want a corporate nanny. I want to buy a strong aluminum baseball bat, and take full responsibility for what I do with it, without bureaucrats (or manufacturers "cooperating" with bureaucrats) telling me I need a pro baseball employment contract in hand before I can get one.

I am a broadcast engineer and have used ham gear to temporarily replace an IPA or other stage in a broadcast rig in an emergency. I have used ham gear in a lab environment for many purposes, some of which include generating power outside the ham bands. We have a potential lab grade device (at prices ordinary folks can afford) that could potentially be used for many such purposes.

As for enforcement -- a friend of mine has had a neighbor's Samsung plasma TV wiping out 80 and 75 meters for more than two years now since the FCC admitted that it was causing harmful interference. The FCC refuses to enforce their own rules (though their engineers want to) because certain high-ranking bureaucrats there are "uncomfortable" with telling someone she must shut down or replace her offending TV. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of these and similar offending, illegal devices are spreading their garbage all over the bands. So, yeah, I want real enforcement. Trying to get manufacturers to do the right thing doesn't work too well.
(Edited)
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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So you agree with me that the gang that can't shoot straight is doing a lousy job of enforcing the law

From a totally practical point of view what is suddenly going to change so we get strong enforcement. Nothing.

So why jump on Flex for making sure their radios obey the law

IIRC manufacturers is SDR capable of transmitting anywhere are required by law to provide the appropriate restrictions in order to obtain type acceptance.

Your plasma TV example is a non sequeter because it is not covered under the laws governing transmitters albeit it's a great example of the gang that can't shoot straight
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Kevin WB4AIO

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Sure, those other transceiver manufacturers provide restrictions. But those restrictions can be undone if the user needs to do so. That's what most manufacturers do, and there have been no fines as far as I know -- nor should there be.

Why punish and restrict innocent users by the hundreds or thousands just because some people are irresponsible and selfish? The people who are determined to run high power on 27 MHz or run other inappropriate frequencies are going to do it anyway -- they ARE doing it anyway, and putting restrictions in Flex gear does not reduce that one iota. So it's all pointless. Like gun control, it only punishes the innocent.
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Kevin WB4AIO

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By the way, don't get me wrong: I love Flex radios. A Flex is my only rig right now.

I just think they've made the wrong decision in setting themselves up as unpaid nannies for the US government.

It's an untenable position for them, really. Because they have also put themselves in the position of being unpaid nannies for the British government -- the French government --  the Bulgarian government -- now the Argentinian government -- and innumerable others, including some that no one has thought of yet, and including every change that these dozens of governments might make at any time.

Sheesh! Just give us a check box. And freedom.
(Edited)
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Gastonet

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Agree 101% I have my Flex and Maestro and I'm not only really but REALLY happy with them but also with the company itself. My post is about the Customer Care Manager answer "as is" because (IMO) isn't the better answer.
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Kevin WB4AIO

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Gaston, I hope it all works out for you -- and for Flex. Probably Tim's wording was less than optimal -- and the last two words of the title of this thread are less than optimal too.

A check box to open up the radios is the best solution. It's perfectly legal, and other manufacturers do the same or the equivalent without problems. The chances of Flex being singled out if they did the same are practically zero.

It is also legal, by the way, to transmit on any frequency in an emergency. Hard-to-reverse firmware restrictions make that impossible. I've witnessed a sinking vessel being saved in just such a situation.
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Gastonet

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As you said, maybe a checkbox (with a disclaimer) will be the solution and it shouldn't be illegal, reverse engineering is. Nevermind, I had to be tied up and use it "as is".
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Gary L. Robinson

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One thing to consider is that the main lucrative part of Flex Radio's business may be with U.S. government contracts and sales.   Think about that ...

---Gary WB8ROL
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Steve K9ZW, Elmer

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IMHO FRS hasn't said "screw you" and some trite crap about transverter band edges differing, a change to 60m first happening next year, and a buy-up local band permission for a band the 6700 won't carry preselection for is a bit lame. Certainly not worth the drama.

The whole conversation with FRS hasn't been shared either.

On general public petulance is poor policy to lobby a manufacturer to do something special for a person.

Thinking the "as is" is earned.

73

Steve K9ZW
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Gastonet

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Steve, I'll not share the whole conversation (I don't have nothing to hide but also I don't have to share it with you), but just FYI I even offered to contribute on doing the TURF file or the information needed to create one. I'm not asking about using my radio for send a rocket, I just want to use it as I want, and quoting Kevin is the best answer "I want freedom to choose and decide and take responsibility for my acts.". If If you can think what you want, I want to use my radio as I want. Isn't fair?
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Btw. TURF files are pretty common these days with SDR's as there are no diodes to clip to modify frequency ranges. Virtually ever Cell phone has a TURF file for different countries.
(Edited)
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YV5WZ

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Hello Friends!

Please!!  Invite all you to keep cool and don't overreact
we have the risk to convert this Turf  topic in "Turfonication" problem
(joking)   

George, YV5WZ / PY3ZZZ
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Well said George
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Steve W6SDM

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I ran "Turfonication" through Google translate.  *blush*   :)
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YV5WZ

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Hahahahaha

Greetings my good friend Steve :D

George, YV5WZ / PY3ZZZ
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Walt - KZ1F

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I actually have a legitimate question on this. What is the harm to letting uses update their on turf files? As I recall flexlib has the APIs to extract as well as load turf files.
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Gastonet

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Bingo Waltz! I didn't know about the API, that could was a good answer from Tim, at least a bit more than saying: use the radio "as is". I will try to find the way instead of wasting my time here reading people wasting time telling me what to do and do not with my radio. Thank you for enlighten me.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Just so we are clear - there is no FCC rule requiring certification for amateur radio equipment below 30MHz except that it is required for external RF power amplifiers. You as the licensee are ultimately responsible to ensure that your station's transmissions are within FCC regulations. (This is on the exam!)

However, equipment that can operate in the CB bands by default or with easy modification are often deemed CB transceivers by the FCC and places that sell them such as truck stops are often shut down. For example, "10 meter amateur transceivers" that can be converted to operate in the CB band or 11 meters. So the risk of Flex allowing the end user to "open up" the transmit range is too great. From what I understand Flex also supplies solutions for Government and this could put them in jeopardy. 
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I don't think Flex is about to change their policy on this. They make sure the radio is completely legal per the place it is operated in, as it should be.
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Walt - KZ1F

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You mean an Austin TX company ascribes to nanny state dogma?? And, frankly Bill, with all due respect, why are you still spokesperson for FRS?
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mikeatthebeach .

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Just use transverter mode but add an amp ! 
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Steve W6SDM

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While the libertarian in me would like to see less regulation for manufacturers and more responsibility placed on operators to follow the rules, I know that it will be a futile effort based upon past experience.  In the 1970s, the Yaesu FT101 was popular with the CB crown because of the ease at which it could be turned into an all channel, 100-watt SSB CB transceiver.  Add an amp and one could "own" channel 15.

It's not just the CBers.  Look at any DX pileup and see how many intentional and unintentional screw-ups there are.  Once those screw-ups start impacting communications to other services on adjacent bands, you can expect amateur radio to be placed directly in the cross hairs of FCC scrutiny.

When I buy a transceiver for amateur radio, I expect it to operate in the amateur bands, nowhere else.  Aside from mods for related services like MARS, there really isn't any reason not to have some restriction to prevent out-of-band operation, either intentional or otherwise.

Nevertheless, the FCC should be enforcing the rules.  If they responded to 14.313 MHz as quickly and with the fervor that they did Janet Jackson's wardrobe "malfunction" in the 2004 Superbowl half time show, there would never be another violation. 
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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They can't collect from hams. They can from corporations. Look at how long it took them to collect from K1MAN, eventually deep sixed his license during the red light review and STILL haven't collected. A friend of mine is an economist at the CBO and she tells me that the FCC is basically self funded. So that's why amateur enforcement takes a low priority.
(Edited)
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Rich McCabe

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Gaston, also wanted to mention that although Tim's message may seem short to you he is in fact a really helpful guy and he did answer the question accurately.  I doubt they have time to hash out every subject in detail and if its important to you then you should submit it as a feature request.
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Gastonet

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Thanks Rich, I don't doubt that Tim is a really helpful guy, I saw him responding on other post, but I'm still unhappy with his answer about my need, use the radio "as is" maybe is not the most accurate answer. As I said, I wanted to help doing the file or providing local info to collaborate in making the file needed as I did with at least 100 apps for amateur radio.
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k3Tim

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Deep breath...  There now relax, take it easy.   Deep breath.  See how much better that is.....

Any mfg that has a method or means that allows a user to set a device to access frequencies outside those that are legal is opening themselves up to the potential of a large fine. A quick read of:

https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-settlement-tp-link

indicates a WiFi mfg was hit wiith a $200K fine for allowing users to set their region codes and use spectrum outside the allocated band. That's a lot of coin...
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W7NGA

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Yeah .. I wanted to use my Flex 6500 outside the ham bands for use on my sailboat in the channelized marine communications band. Took me five minutes ... wasn't legal, but easily done. Wait .. I mean, I know a guy that knew a guy that did it for me!

W7NGA  dan
Seaside, Oregon
(Edited)
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mikeatthebeach .

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I have Microwave transverter's at 10GHz, 24GHz, 47GHz
Using the transverter mode get me to those frequencies with the Flex 
as an IF ( Freedom to chose my IF Frequency )

IEEE-MTT Ham Radio 10GHz Radio at IEEE-MTT Conference
50MHz and Up Microwave Group of Radio Amateurs
RF/Microwave Engineers in Ham Radio

http://www.50mhzandup.org/hrs.html

A lot of use SDR & Flex Radio's
(Edited)
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mikeatthebeach .

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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Sorry, but I have to respond here because our conversation was not published in its entirety.  Below is my response that Gason has chosen not to include.

We export our radios as amateur radio equipment and because they are SDRs, as a radio manufacturer are not allowed to provide user access to the firmware to change the transmit frequencies of the radio regardless of that you are allowed to do as an operator. I am sorry that this answer is not what you expected or satisfactory, but using the radio with the current transmit frequency settings of the US is the only option available, hence my "as is" statement.

At this time I am closing this post as the "problem" has been addressed.

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.