Any news on when Flex might implement this? Maybe in the new 6400/6600 rigs?
Posted 2 years ago
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
Thanks Gerald, appreciate it. Maybe you guys should give me a discount on my 6600M order as a valued customer - 5000, 3000, 6700, 1500. Keep up the good work!
Gerald,
I read with interest and great encouragement that Flexradio is still moving forward with pre distortion. Can you please re confirm that when it is implemented in a forthcoming version of SmartSdr, that it will run on the current 6700 product without hardware modification.
Thank you
G4BIM
I read with interest and great encouragement that Flexradio is still moving forward with pre distortion. Can you please re confirm that when it is implemented in a forthcoming version of SmartSdr, that it will run on the current 6700 product without hardware modification.
Thank you
G4BIM
Steve Hicks has said at least once that I remember that the entire signature series line of radios are pre distortion capable in their hardware. Your 6700 is covered.
Ken - NM9P, Elmer
Yes, they have said multiple times that all of the 60000 series has been designed from the ground up with internal capabilities for Adaptive PreDistortion.
If you look at the new PowerGenius XL, there are sensing outputs designed for that purpose as well.
If you look at the new PowerGenius XL, there are sensing outputs designed for that purpose as well.
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
Yes, your 6700 will be compatible. This is not a commitment on time frame.
This is nice to hear that all the 6000's will be able to utilize the Pre-Distortion feature when its available
Thank you for re confirming that Gerald.
I have spent the last 24 hours or so in a very unscientific way evaluating the new Anan 8000dle against the 6700.
Without going into reams of comments. I would just like to say the following:
In my opinion its receiver performance in general is really no better than the 6700, except possibly on 6m in terms of effective sensitivity.
Its fan is noisy and is always running even on continuous standby.
It is very big, ugly and heavy for an SDR.
It lacks a balanced XLR audio input.
Cannot be rack mounted.
Although it works OK with the modified PowerSdr, this is now a clunky piece of unattractive software
compared to SmartSdr.
Won't be keeping it ....
G4BIM
I have spent the last 24 hours or so in a very unscientific way evaluating the new Anan 8000dle against the 6700.
Without going into reams of comments. I would just like to say the following:
In my opinion its receiver performance in general is really no better than the 6700, except possibly on 6m in terms of effective sensitivity.
Its fan is noisy and is always running even on continuous standby.
It is very big, ugly and heavy for an SDR.
It lacks a balanced XLR audio input.
Cannot be rack mounted.
Although it works OK with the modified PowerSdr, this is now a clunky piece of unattractive software
compared to SmartSdr.
Won't be keeping it ....
G4BIM
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
In my opinion its receiver performance in general is really no better than the 6700, except possibly on 6m in terms of effective sensitivity.
An upcoming SmartSDR software update for the 6700 will improve its 6m and 2m performance with an additional 10 dB of RF preamp gain.
An upcoming SmartSDR software update for the 6700 will improve its 6m and 2m performance with an additional 10 dB of RF preamp gain.
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That's interesting, Tim. Will the 6500 also benefit in terms of 6m performance?
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
No, just the 6700. It has a different RF preamp architecture than the 6500 due to the availability of the 2m band.
Woohoo!
On my 6700 if using 30db gain on 6M [50 ohm terminated] I see blips on a wide panadapter but the blips do not produce an audible sound when tuning through them. Antenna noise covers most of the blips but not all. Is this normal?
(Edited)
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
Yes, you can see deeper into the noise floor with the panadapter than you can hear.
The "woohoo" was meant for the upcoming increased gain and not the fact that the 6500 doesn't get it... Somehow I thought I was posting after Tim's first statement and my comment went through on the second one.
The "woohoo" was meant for the upcoming increased gain and not the fact that the 6500 doesn't get it... Somehow I thought I was posting after Tim's first statement and my comment went through on the second one.
All I can say is that my Anan 100 with pure signal has 3rd order IMD at about -50 to 55 db below signal. That's impressive. Hope Flex implements this soon. Then I can sell the Anan.
Agreed!! I think Flex would be VERY foolish not to get that feature implemented.
(Edited)
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
I don't think they'll ignore this feature at all. In fact the Power Genius XL having the sample ports is a very good sign. No, I haven't seen it (APD in SSDR) and even if I did I couldn't tell...
For people that would never ever use a radio with out PS, they will have to stay with the Anan for a while longer.
But on the other hand, I also would not consider anything other then a Flex as it does some things other radio's can't.
But on the other hand, I also would not consider anything other then a Flex as it does some things other radio's can't.
It is worth noting that we are in same boat as 4 years ago, down to the "passion" for and against APD
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/adaptive-pre-distortion-on-a-6500
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/adaptive-pre-distortion-on-a-6500
(Edited)
I think almost everyone on this community wants PS, why not? But to say it is the be end all is silly. Without PS the flex does a nice job, as we see the screen shot of Dave transmitting beside an Anan at the same time shows it can be very clean when setup to be.
Dave is on the right in this picture, Anan on the left.
I remember those days, It was not really about PS, but that topic was used to bash Flex. And some of those guys are still at it on air.
I like the idea of PS, I heard Dave W2OX with his Flex amp and the Anan 8000. I was impressed how the amp worked with PS. Now when they implement PS on the Flex, it will be even more impressive not having that over processed sound the Anan has.
Dave is on the right in this picture, Anan on the left.
I remember those days, It was not really about PS, but that topic was used to bash Flex. And some of those guys are still at it on air.
I like the idea of PS, I heard Dave W2OX with his Flex amp and the Anan 8000. I was impressed how the amp worked with PS. Now when they implement PS on the Flex, it will be even more impressive not having that over processed sound the Anan has.
(Edited)
Over processed? While awaiting my 6600 I am running an Anan 100 using PS, a Heil PR781 and a W2IHY 8 band equalizer. I am a regular on several nets and have always gotten outstanding 'broadcast quality' audio reports. Sounds like someone didn't have their Anan set up correctly.
Almost all, you can hear the processing, very loud, but hard to listen to. But I have heard a few when things are cranked way down that sounds much better.
Anyways, it's just me, I like a relaxed natural audio.
Anyways, it's just me, I like a relaxed natural audio.
Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer
Broadcast quality? I don't think so, not with and SSB signal even with the bandwidth stretched out. Great sounding audio compared to many on the bands, yes for sure, outstanding reports, for sure but lets not call it broadcast quality. As good as the PR781 is a broadcaster would not use one, saying that I use a PR40 and quite happy with it even knowing I'll never benefit from the frequency response I don't care, I like the way it looks and how it picks up my voice and for the most part we all have to be satisfied with our own expectations of our stations. The bottom line that is all that matters.
(Edited)
Anyone who says that a PR40, RE27 or any mic in that class will not improve their audio needs hearing aids.
Ken - NM9P, Elmer
A studio mic can add some good clarity even to a relatively narrow SSB signal....BUT... with mics like the PR40 et. al. you MUST be careful not to let the low end run too hot, or the bass will overwhelm the processor - even if you keep your Mic level out of the red - and will add distortion artifacts within the TX passband. Not only that, but if your signal has too much bass, it robs the transmitter of effective power in the higher audio frequency ranges that carry most of the intelligibility. I HATE trying to copy one of those guys when they are weak... all I can hear is the mushy bass droning along.....
But this is the beauty of the TX EQ - you can fine-tune almost any mic to sound good. But other Mics can be made to sound even better! And that is why we have the ability to save multiple Mic Profiles - Rag chewing at S9 + 20 dB needs a different audio profile than Dxing or working the weak ones on 6 meters!
But this is the beauty of the TX EQ - you can fine-tune almost any mic to sound good. But other Mics can be made to sound even better! And that is why we have the ability to save multiple Mic Profiles - Rag chewing at S9 + 20 dB needs a different audio profile than Dxing or working the weak ones on 6 meters!
Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer
Yes Ken absolutely right. Your video demonstrates this and I'm always referring any new Flexer to this. Some just don't get it, they love their old microphone cuz is good for DX. but hurts the ears in ragchew. Taking advantage of a feature before us, multiple profiles, again without repeating, your video says it all. I've got it linked from my QRZ page but for those who haven't viewed them:
(Edited)
EA4GLI - 8P9EH - Salvador
About a year ago you made the point about the benefits of a cleaner signal versus an extra bit of power, making a compelling point about the Signature series not always reaching 100w, and that it was not as important as a clean signal. You convinced me.
It would seem that pre-distortion is in line with the idea of making the Signature series the cleanest radios on the air.
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
EA4GLI - 8P9EH - Salvador
Zack Schindler - N8FNR
K4ELO
Bill -VA3WTB
N3NER
Bill -VA3WTB
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
N3NER
N3NER
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
N3NER
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
That was possible with some of the early alpha firmware and software. We are still improving the hardware, firmware and the software for the PGXL.
N3NER
Bill -VA3WTB
N3NER
N3NER
N3NER
Bill -VA3WTB
N3NER
Bill -VA3WTB
N3NER
Bill -VA3WTB
Varistor
N3NER
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
Varistor
The simplicity of the Kenwood remote heads is just brilliant, especially if you are a CW person. Good luck doing real remote CW with your Flex.
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
Port forwarding is inherently insecure. I'd like to think that with the responsibility for running a 1500 watt shortwave radio station I have some authentication and encryption layer in between. From what I understand, previous systems by Kenwood and RS-BA1 were plain text and open. Sure, you can have easy, but I can also leave my front door open and not have to worry about carrying keys with me. With SmartLink you get both easy and secure with authentication via Auth0 which features social login and MFA. All radio commands are encrypted with TLS.
(BTW I am not talking about RemoteRig, which is a fine product. But it is a third party product, nonetheless).
N3NER
Varistor
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
RemoteRig is $700 plus the cost of a remote head.
You should try a Flex, with SmartLink, Rudy. You might like it. :)
N3NER
Varistor
The fact of the matter is that remote access has been around for decades. Sure, Flex made a somewhat better mouse trap by providing limited zero config connectivity. Plenty of users have have tried and concluded that VPN still works better.
Back on top, IMHO PS is certainly a feature of value and differentiation to a lot more hand than remote access.
Bill -VA3WTB
Alan, K2WS
For example if band conditions allow 50dB signal to noise ratios at the receiver, then the cleaner signal would be apparent. But if s/n was no greater then 20dB at that receiver, there wouldn’t be any detectable difference in cleanliness. So, given that it’s more difficult to suppress IMD more completely, how much IMD suppression is enough, -35, -50, -65, -80dB? Because if s/n ratios at the receiver rarely exceed eg., 40dB, what practical value is suppressing IMD 80dB? So the trick is to reduce IMD enough so that in nearly all cases it won't be detectable.
I have built and used a hardware APD system with my 6500 since October 2015. The 6500 drives an Alpha 9500 (in the APD loop) to 1500w output. On 80 and 40 meters the IMD is 48 to 55dB down with the APD active and 35 to 40dB down without it. I’ve demonstrated this many times on the air. My system does not provide this level of performance on all bands and it requires electrical connections to the 6500 hardware. A software solution is highly desirable IMO.
If Flex could make their software APD suppress IMD 50dB or more on all bands and include, in the APD loop, an external Linear Amplifier, the 6000 Series would support this useful feature. I believe FRS should address this issue.
Varistor
Great post! Thanks for your thoughts. Would be super helpful if you could share the details of your APD. This type of a solution is worth considering by hams regardless of what radio they use today.
With respect to your point on IMD and band noise, please keep in mind that they are related in a not so obvious way. During contesting weekends, the band noise jumps way up because of all the dirty signals IN ADDITION to the atmospheric noise. So there is a huge value in pursuing cleaner signals.
Any chance you can publish your APD work?
N3NER
Marc Lalonde
this is how look a MSK144 signal on 6m , not to forgot that need to add over that amplifier own IMD ! and remember that MS operation is 30segond on 30 segond and each QSO may take way over 15 minute on bad day
not to mention the 10-12 49mhz neighbor device 300khz away that suffer as soon signal is not perfect clean ,and susceptible to complain or make you a target
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
Marc Lalonde
or if i push to extreme
But as said this is for every radio whit 12V PA and broadband ballun transformer
simply cannot make design clean for HF and 6M ,only solution is Pre-distortion
Chris DL5NAM
Ken - NM9P, Elmer
For maximum signal purity on Digital modes, I would recommend setting your TX audio level two or three notches below the "zero" setting. Which won't make much difference especially since I see that you are running less than full power output.
Marc Lalonde
that same signal trough XVRT port ,that is clean ;-) , i actually think to made 6m optimized AMP that take XVRT drive to 3W need to the BLF188 LDMOS
Marc Lalonde
Ken - NM9P, Elmer
Marc Lalonde
one of first test i do when receive my 6600 is measure the IMD whit the ARRL test methodology whit radio only and whit my amplifiers for make sure to i meet regulation since i operate exclusively 6m trough 1296 whit lot of power ( MS / EME / tropo scatter ) and since it remote setup i must knot system limit
and on 6m PA not let lot of headroom ,must be really carefully whit the linear
must admit that msk144 is terrible mode for linearity ;-) ,that wly i chose it for demonstrated worst case scenario
p.s. i complete yesterday my VHF VUCC ;-) ,of course all done whit flex 6700/6600
Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer
Marc Lalonde