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Maestro Poor Wifi Performance

2

Comments

  • [Deleted User]
    edited April 2020
    Maybe we should have a list of routers that work well. Like when the list was made for firewire cards that worked with the older 3k,5k series radios
  • G4NRT
    G4NRT Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    I am using Apple equipment and when I first installed my Maestro it was working brilliantly with no drop-outs and very low latency.  I am connecting to an Airport Extreme on 5GHz.  The Airport Extreme is connected by 5GHz Wifi to an Apple Time Capsule.

    This week, with no changes in the intervening period, I find myself almost unable to use the Maestro on Wifi.  The drop-outs are high and the network quality fluctuates between Excellent and Poor and back again with no discernable cause. I am seeing the same behaviour if I use the 2.4GHz network on the same access point.

    Everything is in the same room!

    I have had to revert to using an ethernet cable for the Maestro.  The FRS 6500 itself is attached by ethernet to the same Airport Extreme. 

    David G4NRT


  • Bill -VA3WTB
    Bill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    It comes as no surprise, with WiFi many are having problems with connecting, due to the wide range of routers that are being used.

    With this new product there seems to be much learning to do. Gerald said they had all of the Maestros connect during the Ham convention with out issues for the entire time, and there are many owners that have had no problems at all even over an extended time of use. so we do now they work very well for many. But not for all. Seems like the setup and configuration is critical.

    Maybe Flex can lay out exactly what is needed to be done, what products have best performance and how to configure them. It seems only a few routers meet the needs even as the specs say they should work many don't.

    It seems clear to me with all the ones that are working well it is not a Flex issue. But how can we determine what the best way to connect is, and with what?
  • Mike va3mw
    Mike va3mw Member ✭✭
    edited February 2018
    I have had so many problems with Apple Airport Extremes and I am sure they all suffer from Buffer Bloat.  My relatives all complain about it.

    Buffer Bloat is a bad thing that directly impacts the ability to stream UDP packets and throttle them correctly.   Big data buffers are 

    http://www.dslreports.com/faq/17883

    In our case, Flex is the vendor.  Under the covers there is a Wifi card from 'some vendor' and that Wifi card runs on Windows which runs on the Maestro.  No secret there.  

    Rest assured, that this is being perused by Flex with their vendors.   

    Mike va3mw



  • Mike va3mw
    Mike va3mw Member ✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Hi Bob

    The only way I know to stress test is to do iPerf as I  mentioned where you push packets through the router/Access Point to a target device like a laptop.  You want to go that direction as that is the best you can do trying to simulate lost or out of order packets.

    If you have access to a Best Buy that has routers, you can always pick one up and try it out.  If it works, keep it.  If it doesn't, return it.  That is what I did with 4 I tried out.  

    As for the Piper, I am sure you have a few more hours than I do.  But, then, how much different could it be... (don't answer that) LOL.   You'll have to come up to CYKZ if you want that ride.

    73

    Mike va3mw

  • Varistor
    Varistor Member ✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Network performance very much depends not only on the hardware being used, but also, and in some instances more importantly, on how the application is designed and how it uses the bandwidth. The chattier the application, the worse it would perform even if bandwidth is unlimited. That is, in a super simplified explanation, if the app opens and closes network connections, it creates a significant performance challenge that has nothing to do with bandwidth. So it is important to properly examine how Maestro communicates with the Flex to conclusively establish the root cause of poor wifi performance.
  • GI4FZD
    GI4FZD Member
    edited April 2017
    I also had unsatisfactory wifi connection, I could not open a 2nd panadapter without indicator dropping to red. First of all I disabled 2.4ghz wifi at my router suspecting that maybe this was a problem with so many other systems in the neighbourhood using 2.4ghz. So runnng only on 5ghz I found there was no difference. So I switched 2.4ghz back on and disabled 5ghz wifi and to my surprise I now have 2 panadapters running 100% stable. I am using a **** media superhub in the UK, so either there is something strange about the 5ghz wifi in this hub or the Maestro is not able to handle traffic well on the 5ghz.wifi band.
  • Bill -VA3WTB
    Bill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Most people are using 5ghz with out problems. Flex recommends it.
  • GI4FZD
    GI4FZD Member
    edited April 2017
    Yep I know what Flex recommend, I have just turned the 5ghz on again to double check and I have the same issue .Maestro has been running 5 hours now with no dropouts on 2.4ghz wifi, switch to 5ghz and it's dropping out after a couple of minutes and impossible to run 2 panadaters.It could well be specific to this fibre hub, I have also checked the surrounding wifi systems using android wifi monitor, other signals are well down compared to my own wifi. Anyhow happy with the wifi aspect of the Maestro at this qth.
    Cheers
    Paul
  • Mike va3mw
    Mike va3mw Member ✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Paul, just for laughs, do you have another AP you can try?  Even borrowing one?  

    Wifi is different and strength does not have as much to do with performance as your AP does trying to be a good neighbour to all the other APs it can hear.    We sort of have to through the book out the window when it comes to managing co-frequency interference.

    Can you try turning off auto channel selection for your 5Ghz, make sure it is a 40Mhz channel, make sure you don't have anything to do with Jumbo frames on.

    Also, on 5Ghz, try running just non-auto mode for your 5Ghz protocol, like just AC.  See if that helps.

    Lastly, your encryption mode does play a part.  What encryption are you using?

    Which AP are you using?

    Mike va3mw
  • GI4FZD
    GI4FZD Member
    edited April 2017
    Hi Michael,
    I have just switched back to 5ghz   I only have 20, 20/40 or 20/40/80 selection.
    It is set to 20/40 and ch 36 with -50db signal, I am getting lots of dropouts, running wpa/wpa2 psk security, Maestro Network status reports poor, rx rate 1824 kbps, latency 1, tx rate 3kbps, max latency 293, 219 dropped out of 363100.
    tried changing channel to 44 still no difference.
    switch 5ghz off and 2.4ghz ch 11 back on still -50db signal from wifi
    maestro staus excellent, rx rate 1903 kbps, latency 3, tx rate 3, max latency 15
    0 dropped from 24400
    I haven't got different AP to try at the minute but I will try to get one next week.
    Cheers
    Paul
  • GI4FZD
    GI4FZD Member
    edited April 2017
    Arris VMDG505 ,**** media superhub 2 is the model , MTU is set at 1500
    Cheers
    Paul

  • GI4FZD
    GI4FZD Member
    edited April 2017
    Hi Michael, I tried switching the 5ghz side to 802.11ac but it disconnected and I couldn't log in with usual password, so switched back to 802.11 n/ac mixed and it signed on without problem.
    still having many dropouts on 5ghz no matter what settings, going back to disabling it and everything is fine again.
    Cheers
    Paul
  • GI4FZD
    GI4FZD Member
    edited April 2017
    I have now tried all combinations of channels, changing password for 5ghz etc and still can't good connection. so back to 2.4ghz which works 100%, probably a router specific problem, I will borrow an asus one next week and try that.
    Cheers
    Paul
  • jacquesbarmentloo
    jacquesbarmentloo Member
    edited June 2016
    I  have also packetloss on 5G Wifi with a Fritzbox 7490 (Netherlands). Ethernet connection is fine.

    73 Jacques PA2JAC
  • N6OIL
    N6OIL Member ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I have two suggestions, try it with no password on both bands and also if someone could run Wireshark and look at the packets, maybe worth a try. Just wish I had a Maestro to try it on my Aruba system.
  • jacquesbarmentloo
    jacquesbarmentloo Member
    edited February 2018
    I'm going to try 2.4G wifi, but without a password is a bad idea with 40 apartments in the building.
    I suspect it's a bug in the Wi-Fi driver.The router is right next to the Maestro.
  • Mike va3mw
    Mike va3mw Member ✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Make sure you have a lot of AUTO stuff turned off.  These are the items that can make a difference

    Pick a channel
    Use 40Mhz channels, not 80Mhz
    Turn off beam stearing if you have it (or if you can)
    Turn off QOS
    Turn off Jumbo frames
    Does it get better if you reduce your Frame rates on the Maestro?

    There is no single fix.  Some Access Points work great.  Some don't.  

    If you are running encryption, make sure it is WPA2 PSK.  

    Being right beside the router will not make a big difference as these don't deal in capture effect mode like we are used to in FM.  All the packets are multiplexed with yours... Including your Neighbours.

    Mike va3mw


  • Mike va3mw
    Mike va3mw Member ✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Your solution is simple.  You have to get off 2.4G.  I had the same problem in my Montreal apartment.  There was no way to get it to work in a congested environment.  Pick up anything 5Ghz that you can test with.  Make sure you can exchange it if it does work.  

    I'm finding the more basic units work better.  Make sure you update the firmware once you get it.

    73, Mike va3mw

  • Varistor
    Varistor Member ✭✭
    edited June 2016
    It's not clear to me how a solution can be recommended without a solid root cause analysis. All these efforts are nothing but shooting in the dark.

    Step #1 is to use a sniffer and capture sufficient amount of traffic to profile the application and understand what its network behavior is. Most application developers do not understand how networks work and write apps that are often network unfriendly.

    My bet is on the software. I see 17 2.4 GHz networks in my house. Have no problem streaming Netflix and DirecTV at the same time and making VOIP Vonage calls using a single 2.4 GHz access point.
  • Mike va3mw
    Mike va3mw Member ✭✭
    edited June 2016
    You know what.  You are exactly correct.   Yet, we have multiple vendors.  

    The card provider and the driver for that vendor on the Maestro.  On top of that they would have to include Microsoft and get their enterprise support team involved.

    Now, we have each and every Access Point vendor out there.  Each solution may have different firmware and different developers, etc.  You get the idea.

    Yes, it should happen but there are too many moving pieces.

    N2WQ - what router/access points are you using and what firmware levels.  Like I said in may posts, I had great success with 2 inexpensive routers (older Linksys and a TP-Link 1750).  What is your solution and that may give people some options?

    Mike va3mw

  • Steve (N9SKM)
    Steve (N9SKM) Member
    edited June 2016
    Thruput vs latency is the issue here.
  • Varistor
    Varistor Member ✭✭
    edited June 2016
    First, let me clarify that I do not have a Maestro. In fact, I no longer have a Flex as I returned the loaner over the weekend.

    I have a 5-year old Netgear. As I mentioned before, well written for network apps, such as Netflix, DirecTV, and Vonage- have no problem happily co-existing on my 2.4 Ghz network.

    My fist advice is to have Flex invest the time and money to properly profile the Maestro code and make sure it is network friendly.

    Tactically, I'd suggest Maestro owners try the following:

    1) Lower the MTU packet size. Yes, this will create less efficient use of the available bandwidth, but is likely to improve latency.

    2) Implement QoS rules by tagging the Flex traffic is realtime, audio/video, or highest priority based on whatever options are available for the particular router.

    3) Use narrow channels rather than wide

    4) Disable legacy support (i.e., 802.11 G and B)

    5) Scan for other wifi networks and make sure your network uses a channel that is not used by others. Turn off channel hopping and explicitly assign the channel you want.

    Again, these are all shots in the dark without properly profiling Maestro's network behavior. Flex must own the resolution of this problem, not the Maestro owners.
  • Burch - K4QXX
    Burch - K4QXX Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Just seems to be kind of hit and miss when it comes to routers.  I have tried 3 different routers.  My older Netgear works great on both 2.4 and 5Ghz with Maestro.  I can run for hours without any drops.  My new Asus router doesn't work at all with the Maestro.  I have tried all the different settings mentioned here and it makes no difference on 2.4 or 5Ghz.  My oldest router that only supports 2.4 Ghz, runs Maestro better than my new Asus but still has quite a few packet drops.  What's odd is that I can run SmartSDR on my 8 year old laptop with my new Asus router and it works great.  But with Maestro, it is just unusable due to all the drops.  I am glad I kept my netgear!
  • Mike va3mw
    Mike va3mw Member ✭✭
    edited June 2016
    That is exactly my findings.  

    I'm guessing that all of these are related to Bufferbloat issues (UDP packets do not like large buffers as they get out of sync).   Those APs with Beam steering or Multiple MIMO (2x2), etc., might be worse.  

    On some opensource routers, their Linux kernel can be tuned for smaller buffers.  Not the same for others.

    I guess it is time to head back to the flea markets looking for WRT54G routes.  LOL

    Mike va3mw

  • AE0MW
    AE0MW Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    I've largely stayed out of this thread since I posted, but here's the thing, this is not a router issue. At best it's an interaction between the Maestro's wifi chipset and certain routers.

    I cannot speak for every user reporting a problem, but I can speak for myself and I know based on reading these posts that I'm not alone. Everyone seems to be forgetting the simple fact that other devices (laptops, surface's, even desktops) connected to the SAME WIFI NETWORK ON THE SAME BAND perform flawlessly. They're doing the exact same work, using (in most cases) Flex's own SmartSDR Software. In my test cases even from the exact same physical location as the Maestro.

    It's pure arrogance on the part of Flex, their Champions, Elmers and supporters to say it's a router or network or congestion issue.

    It doesn't really matter if it's a WiFi chipset/driver issue, a Windows stack issue, or a hardware failure. I understand that Flex didn't design the WiFi module in the Maestro nor did they code the underlying Windows 10 embedded OS, but as the system integrator they put their name on the final product and they are responsible for it's overall poor performance.

    I like my Flex-6500. I like Flex-the Flex Radio company, but they don't walk on water and they make mistakes, have issues, and occasionally choose poor suppliers just like all the rest of us. How they handle it however... That could use more than a little improvement.

  • Steve K9ZW
    Steve K9ZW Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016
    Did you open a help ticket?

    73

    Steve K9ZW
  • AE0MW
    AE0MW Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Tim did 3 weeks ago, "I have entered this problem report into our bug tracker (defect #3623) for additional investigation. Thank you for the defect report."

    There hasn't been a peep since though.
  • Mike va3mw
    Mike va3mw Member ✭✭
    edited February 2018
    AE0MW

    I can honestly say, that Flex has not walked away from this and it is still being perused.   I, like others, have been providing helpful work arounds only while this problem does get solved and trying to provide options so everyone can enjoy their Maestro.

    The defect was raised, and is being acted on.  From the perspective of this forum, the only acceptable comment from Flex would be that they now understand how to fix it and when it will be fixed.  

    As for comparing this to normal laptop/internet connectivity, it is vastly different.  Technically there are many more streams at much highers rates.  While similar to streaming video, etc., the data that is sent to the Maestro is much more involved and dynamic.  Unless you (not you personally), understand the underlying transport methods it is hard to comprehend.   Those that work under the covers in the Wifi world understand just how hard it is to make it work well especially when you don't own the solution end to end.  

    However, it does not help the situation today for some of you.  For many, it is flawless.  

    Every other vendor in the world has this same problem when it comes to overall integration wireless.  HP laptops perform differently on the same network as Lenovo or Apple.  Neither are doing anything wrong, there is just no perfect standard that everyone follows.

    Sadly, we want our data and we want it now.  Same as your tablet, desktop, phone, etc.  Heck, even Windows computers don't communicate well with other Windows computers when they should.  

     I like other hams on this forum work in the industry.  We are just closer to it than most.

    Carry on.

    Mike va3mw

  • GM4WCE
    GM4WCE Member
    edited February 2018
    I am interested in buying a Maestro, but I am concerned about these issues with WiFi performance. I have a Lenovo ThinkPad laptop which runs SSDR with no issue if on ethernet, but on WiFi the network indicator suddenly goes from excellent all green to poor, with stuttering waterfall, then back to excellent again.  This cycle repeats every few minutes with the laptop remaining in the same place, and with the laptop in close proximity to the router.  The router is a TP Link Archer and with no near neighbours to cause WiFi congestion.  Strange thing is, the laptop streams video with no issues at all on WiFi, it just seems to give trouble on SSDR.  Anyone else using a TP Link Archer router?

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