IC7300 Manual Released

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The manual has been leaked/released, it appears. Interesting read, as we finally get an idea of it's receive capability. I'll let you all be the judge...http://www.mwe.dk/IC-7300.PDF
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Rob Fissel

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Posted 3 years ago

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k0eoo

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I notice in the receive specifications that the 7300 has a 36kHz IF??  If that's the case its not using DDS as they advertise but has a Direct conversion front end with base band A/D conversion like the Flex3000/5000....
(Edited)
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Barry N1EU

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It's direct sampling RF to digital.  They just digitally re-sample to use their already existing 36KHz dsp software library.
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Rob Fissel

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It says it's using a direct sampling superhet on receive.... so yeah...

Spurious and image rejection not even close to the 6300, let alone the 100dB in the 65/6700. 
(Edited)
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Rob Fissel

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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Its target market is the Ic706, ic7000 Low cost not world class performance.

Looks like a 1st generation SDR
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Barry N1EU

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It IS direct sampling.  I say it's going to be an excellent low cost radio but as far as SDR, it will have worst-in-class spectrum display - very low resolution.
(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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Is the  bar for that now at UHD for spectrum display? It shows where stuff is....doesn't need to be UHD. It might kill the TS-590. I suspect there is still a solid 6 months before anyone can discern what impact, if any, it will have. I don't suspect Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom consider Elecraft a major manufacturer either. Kinda like Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and Honda not considering Tesla a major auto manufacturer either....huh Howard?
(Edited)
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Cal Spreitzer

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I doubt any TS-590 user would give up their radio for a 7300!   They may be in the same price range but the 7300 has only one antenna port! 
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Barry N1EU

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No, the bar for that now is something better than this:

Inline image 1

Yup, that's actually as good as the IC-7300 display gets, even on an external monitor.  Reminds  me of the Ten-Tec Orion Sweep circa 2002.
(Edited)
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Rob Fissel

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Here you go!
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Rob Fissel

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That's the image that I saw in the email sent to me regarding your post. No picture seen when I visit the actual post. Checked both Firefox and Chrome. Strange. 
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James Whiteway

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Just wondering, it says thats as good as it gets, even on an external monitor. I thought the 7300 had no video output for a external monitor. So, where does that image come from?
James
WD5GWY
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Walt - KZ1F

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Ya know what? That works just fine for me. Throw that up on a 32" monitor, what's not to like? Oh wait, I forgot where I was.

Oh, Barry... YAY!
(Edited)
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Barry N1EU

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James, the IC-7300 doesn't drive an external monitor directly.  You need to run software on the PC that  interfaces to the 7300 via USB and I assume the video memory is passed via the USB port.
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EA4GLI - 8P9EH - Salvador

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This is the actual diagram http://forum.qrz.ru/attachments/338-ic-7300/158703d1456442991-ic-7300-ic-7300_schematic_diagram_0.pd...
of the 7300 if anyone is interested in analyzing it.
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Walt - KZ1F

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Wow...when is Heathkit going to come out with it's version of this?
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DrTeeth

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I have recently come across (wink) a collection of 500 Ham Radio equipment manuals. Some are quite old. I will do requests, my email is good on qrz.com.
(Edited)
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KF4HR

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The IC-7300 looks like a down sized entry level version of my IC-7800 (which by the way has been collecting dust since I received my Flex-6700).  The 7300 seems a tad too large to be a replacement for the IC-706 series, IC-7000, or IC-7100.  My guess is, this is ICOM's attempt to test the SDR mid-to-lower end market.  

As for displays.  IMHO FRS has pretty much thrown down the gauntlet when it comes to spectrum displays.  Adding a large UHD screen, while not absolutely necessary, for me is just icing on the cake.  I enjoy the flexibility of the Flex spectrum display and that any sized screen can be used.  Price aside,  I much prefer tuning viewing a large high resolution spectrum display, than looking at a frequency dial and a run-of-the-mill small screen band scope with minimal viewing capability..., but I'm guessing I'm preaching to the choir. :^))     
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Barry N1EU

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Here's a spectral display that has my appetite whetted, SDR-Console v3 being driven by Flex 6500 DAX IQ:



(software is not yet available)
(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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BTW Barry, that came through fb.
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Walt - KZ1F

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The other thing about that Barry, beyond being pretty, what does that convey.
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Barry N1EU

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In a nutshell:
lower left shows AGC curve (SSDR AGC parameters are a mystery)
upper left shows tx audio spectrum of tuned station
waterfall looks like SSDR except it adds two vertical lines showing your rx passband   -  I find it easier to tune in a signal with this than a mouse pointer
panadapter shows:
    peak hold in yellow outline
    rx passband highlighted (like SSDR)
    panadapter trace is color coded for signal strength (mainly just looks very cool)
(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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Do not misunderstand Barry, I think the graphics are awesome. As I said earlier, it took me some time to get a 7 color waterfall to look 'right'. So this is colorizing a spectrum display, on the technical merits, it is, also, awesome. But cpu/gpu wise, it is expensive and my question was sincere, what does it endow to an pan spectrum display more than what a drawLine does. I was toying with the idea, just for poops and giggles, making a 3d spectrum display. (nothing FRS couldn't do) but I questioned the value add over a waterfall. I have never, in my entire working career, done true graphical software, ala what you show or, frankly, what I've done in the last however many months. This, visualization, is a fascinating subfield of software development.
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Takeshi Yamada

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My friend reported that IC7300 preforms very poorly under the high level of input.   He uses 80 meter long windom antenna that yields +3dBm input of 882Khz commercial broadcasting station.   The 4th order of the signal, 3528Khz fall into 3.5Mhz band with S9+ signal strength.   He needed >15dB external attenuator to eliminate such problem.  It is supposed to be caused by the PIN diode switch ICOM uses at the front-end.   Flex6500 did not show any of such problem under the same operating condition, of course.

73 de JI1BNU
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Bill -VA3WTB

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It is not really fair to compare it with the Flex, It seems to be very entry level. But what I do like is it being an SDR mobile radio.
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KK9W - Steve

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Maybe all this should be in a Icom 7300 forum somewhere ??? I really don't give a hoot about the 7300. If I did I'de join the group.
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Paul

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Agreed Barry & Peter

I have been using for the past 5 years an FTDx5000 with an RF Space SDRIQ and the SDR Console software you mention (all versions from 1 to the current build of version 2.3). As well as impressive performance, the SDR console software offers and extremely reliable server which can be used "out of the box" with the client over LAN and WAN. It also interfaces readily with a wide range of other SDR's. I also have an Elad FDM Duo for QRP work which is an excellent little rig.

I will migrate from this configuration only when I find a cost effective replacement offering both better performance and all/more facilities than I have at the moment. It is for this reason that I have been "listening" on this forum since the announcement of the Flex 6000 series. 

I imagine that I'm not the only potential Flex owner who finds the cross fertilization on this and other forums (fora) interesting and useful when evaluating the options on a future SDR purchase. For me, the Flex 6500 is a serious contender, but only when WAN is implemented. I have come out of the woodwork only recently as that moment seems to be creeping closer.
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Walt - KZ1F

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Barry, you worded that WAY better than I did, but we do share the same sentiment. Although I don't share the WAN sentiment as its been available with not only Flex radios but many others for years. It's a well established mode. As its not publicly implemented yet anything said about it is pure wishful thinking.
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Paul

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I agree Walt that neither WAN (nor even LAN) are everyones' cup of tea. But to those of us that like to (or need to) operate that way, I don't believe that the current VPN style solution is anywhere near as elegant as a properly crafted server to which the existing client can connect. I use both here but keep the VPN & SSH/VNC connections for emergencies only.

If I recall, there was a paragraph by Gerald K5SDR in the Flex insider last March which linked WAN capability with V2 of SSDR......."Wide Area Network (WAN) Remote – This capability will be added in SmartSDR v2.0......"

I don't think that was wishful thinking, at least not on my part. I'm content to wait patiently, evaluate it when it arrives and purchase if it meets my requirements.
(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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Yes, WAN appears to be positioned as the marquee feature of v2. My point was people feeling they can't use their 6000 remotely like they can with K3S or TS-990 or even the lowly IC-7300 are mistaken. For those that have amps and rotors and external antenna switches/tuners VPN (and you don't actually need a virtual private network (VPN)) will be pretty much stuck with, what you refer to as, the less elegant solution.  Some would call it the more elegant solution. There are miles of space between a VNC (remote desktop) connection and a few select ports that are open.

I believe there are many people who believe WAN is the next great wave of euphoria that will be washing over them, after Maestro...of course.

Paul, what you've quoted from Gerald isn't the wishful thinking I was referring to. I believe that stmt you quoted is the sum and substance of what we officially know about it. Hardly euphoric wave worthy. You missed my point.
(Edited)
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Paul

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Thanks for clarifying your point Walt although I didn't miss it, I just chose not to take it. It will be interesting to see where and when these developments take the hobby.
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Ken - NM9P, Elmer

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I think the competition will be interesting and ultimately good for the hobby.

Just as the 1500 is often a "gateway rig" for many Flex users, I think rigs like the IC-7300 and the Elad Duo and others will serve as entry level rigs for more advanced SDR's. Other operators will find that they are perfectly satisfied with the performance/cost of these rigs and will happily use them for years.

But there will be a lot of "cross-pollinization" as more companies get into SDR or hybrid SDR rigs and creativity begins to multiply exponentially.

I see nothing wrong with a thread or two dealing with comparisons between Flex rigs and the competition, as long as the conversation is civil and productive. I enjoy hearing about the new offerings and how they compare. It may help others decide if a Flex is for them, and which model might best fit them.

Others clearly have the option to "Unfollow" the thread. When a thread begins to wander from either civility or productivity, I am sure that Tim will close it....as he should. So far I haven't seen any cause for it.

Ken - NM9P
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Most interesting times. As more products come out, they will test the definition of what SDR is. Some may be full SDR and others may have things about them that implies SDR but not really. We have already seen debates here if the K3x is an SDR radio.

Software Defined Radio will be widened to mean almost anything with some processing in it. One thing seems clear, SDR is something almost all radio companies want a peace of. Unless there is an universal agreement as to what the SDR definition is, many with radios without dispute running SDR radios will be offended. Long live SDR, what ever it is.
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Paul

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I'm not sure the definition of SDR is being challenged Bill, since the concept has been around for years in the professional arena and is widely understood and implemented. Moreover the problem (if it is a problem) might be the way that some equipment manufacturers and customers interpret that definition. I believe it's no different to interpreting any other specification in that respect - surely not something to elicit offence? Caveat emptor I suppose.
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Walt - KZ1F

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Something I've mentioned/asked several times on here is what is it beyond a name and replicating some analog function digitally, beyond what DSP already does. As Howard has often said, SDR is the future of radio. That may well be the case. For the moment, let's not compare the 6000 series. The ic-7300 is an SDR. I suspect there will be little push back on this as I predict the ic-7300 will be ranked far below the K3S on the Sherwood ranking, perhaps in the vicinity of the 1500. The panadapter is very slick, but that is hardly unique to Flex or even SDR.
Beyond the material cost of the radio, I am at a loss for where the decisive advantage is. Where legacy radios already are capable of hearing below the atmospheric noise floor is the technology already pretty much up against a hard stop? So the yes I am, no you're not argument on what radio(s) can call themselves SDR seems to me to be in the realm of product marketing. The thing about software is you write it once. Take a vintage 1980 TV, every unit sold had a lot of hardware in it, raising the cost of every unit. The material price of TV s now is far less, but the stations are the same.

Some people will read this and assume I am merely being provocative. I am not, there is a sincere question in that.
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Sorry Walt, can you scale it down a bit,,what is the question? I'm slow at getting it...
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Barry N1EU

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I think it's more definitive and clear to call a radio "direct sampling" when that's the case, rather than "SDR".  "SDR" means nothing anymore as far as I'm concerned.  Any radio with an I/Q output is an SDR supposedly.  Some even call any DSP I.F. radio an SDR.
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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It can be understood that a SDR radio is software, not just software controled?
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Right, the definition can not be challenged, there is not one.
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Joe, KQ1Q

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In general the definition of SDR in this context is all major signal processing functions (not just filtering and noise reduction) are performed by software. The ARRL has recently updated the General Class License Manual (8th ed) and question pool to reflect this. It is now a test question for people taking the exam.

Whether the RF is downconverted first (e.g, Flex 5000) or direct sampled, whether the processing happens on the client or server side, if detection/demodulation happen in software it is an SDR by the current ARRL definition.

It is also the general industry definition. As can be seen in this National Semiconductor video, at 00:15 he shows an analog + DSP signal chain contrasted with an SDR signal chain: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspSh7o3x_A

This is also obvious from common sense. My Denon stereo receiver uses traditional analog methods to receive commercial FM broadcasts, then digitizes the AF and does extensive processing (including bass management, speaker time delay and parametric EQ) in the digital domain. However nobody would claim it is a "Software Defined Radio" just because it receives FM signals and uses extensive DSP to filter and process that.
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Paul

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There are variations but this one, although dated, works for me:  http://www.wirelessinnovation.org/Introduction_to_SDR
The group who formulated it seems to have partnership with a range of well respected organisations in the field.
(Edited)
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Barry N1EU

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I like the blind taste test.  I was just thinking about that during my walk at lunchtime and how my K3s would fare against my 6500.  Going into such a test, I would not bet against the K3s, but who knows?
(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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Barry, that is why I deliberately did not us Elecraft in that example, too much emotion over Elecraft v FRS. My premise is the high end radio would win, regardless of the technology.
Howard will tell you they did that, 6700 v K3s and he felt the 6700 won. Not a blind test and, as I recall, Dennis disagreed.

To do this correctly you'd need at least 4 radios such that the subject not only not know which test included their favorite but there would be tests low end against low end and high end against low end and high-end against high-end.
(Edited)
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Charles - K5UA

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And....it would be a DOUBLE blind test.
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Walt - KZ1F

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Precisely
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Lee, Elmer

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How how an analogue radio vs sdr does depends on the test. It's most likely both radios specs are well beyond typical or even extreme environmental stress. Good enough is good enough

73 W9OY
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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Here is a link to my Friedrichshafen -2015 paper defining Four Genrations of SDR


The 7300is pretty obviously a 1st Generation Direct Down Conversion SDR


https://www.dropbox.com/s/deg696253ag...
(Edited)
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Paul

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Thanks for the link Howard. A very informative presentation on SDR in amateur radio. If John Pawlick AE2JP, the source of your definition of SDR, is widely published I would be interested to read more of his work.
(Edited)
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Jeff - G4IUA

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That was very informative Howard.  Will you be presenting another paper at Friedrichshafen this year?  It would be great to meet up with some of the FlexRadio users there too.

Jeff - G4IUA
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Duane N9DG

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First : They are all SDRs per the definition of “SDR”.

Second: They are not all the same, despite all being SDRs, far from it.

Third: You can't make truly meaningful comparisons between them based only on their single signal at a time operating traits.

You must consider their displays/scopes (and how many), scope/display quality, non traditional tuning and control capabilities, I/Q signal, audio, control, and other I/O capabilities. And now also IP connectivity, and any multi-band, multi-mode operational parallelism they may or may not be capable of.

Bottom line is that when looking at the different SDRs to compare them you must do so on their FULL RANGE of capabilities and functionality.

As for categorizing them in terms of generations, I think that is an exercise in futility. And perhaps more troubling is that it can easily miss what is truly relevant and important when making comparisons between them. I instead divide them along the lines of “Sliver band sampling” or "Wide band sampling” (what Lee alluded to that I have posted elsewhere before):

1. Sliver band sampling – basically any radio that has a "narrow" roofing filter and samples a ~15kHz or less chunk of spectrum.

2. Wide band sampling -  basically any radio that samples a 24kHz or wider chunk of spectrum. AND perhaps more importantly, has the ability to provide two or more software only RX and/or TX's anywhere within that sampled bandwidth simultaneously. You will see that no sliver band (narrow roofing filter) SDR can do that. Though some sliver band designs do provide some degree of analog IF or I/Q outputs to support external SDR software.

You can certainly sub divide the wide band sampling designs in to two sub groups. But they will mostly differ in how much analog mixing is ahead of the ADC, and how much spectrum bandwidth is actually sampled. Their other traits and capabilities will still be quite similar.

And I just don't get this obsession/debate over in-radio vs. in host PC processing either. They are simply design choices that have been made to address different economic and technical trade-offs. Nothing more, nothing less. And the two approaches need not be mutually exclusive either. The 6K series does offer DAX I/Q that can happily feed PC based SDR SW after all.

The IC-7300 is thus far a unique case though. Its underlying technology is certainly wide band sampling. But the way that radio can, and is expected to be used, is anything but “wide band”. It in fact nearly 100% emulates a traditional sliver band design. First by limiting the amount of spectrum that is actually sampled. And then further limiting it by not providing any means to spawn multiple “radios” in the software alone. It is a single signal at a time radio. Period.
(Edited)
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Paul

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Maybe we should just revert to thinking of them as merely "radios". Then simply judge them on how well they meet our own requirements and whether to us individually, they offer value for money. Certainly that's all that matters to me, and those are the only criteria that I'm applying to help decide which radio I buy next. I really don't mind who manufactures it or how it's pigeonholed, but clearly some people do. A Flex 6500 is definitely on my short list but it's not a done deal yet. I hope that taking part in this forum will help me to decide.
(Edited)
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EA4GLI - 8P9EH - Salvador

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I completely disagree.

Expressing euphoria for any material object in any forum is as much a form of freedom of speech as it is Paul's opinion or yours about the "illogical" euphoric reaction of people to those same objects.

I don't agree with anyone that is belligerent. But baring insulting and attacking someone personally (and controlling that unwelcome behavior the job of a moderator) I am completely pro freedom of speech.

Where else will anyone be able to praise or elevate to the status of a demigod any material object but in the manufacturer's forum? Same place where some people decide to reduce its status of that of "unholy expensive absurd" product.

I am free to read or not a post, and I am free to respond or not in any of them. I am free to ignore someone's comments even more when some are clearly using elicitation techniques. 

I don't think reducing the scope of the forum to technical questions will benefit anyone.

Also.... now that I turned the "rant" mode on. I absolutely despise the typical comments where someone writes in a post saying something like "this post should be closed" or "this should be moderated" or the like..... who are they to decide? And if they think it should be close... why are they commenting and adding to the post? Isn't that the opposite of their sentiment? /rant off

I welcome the insight these discussions create in this forum that is mostly populated by very knowledgeable individuals.
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Paul

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Thanks Walt, your comment literally made me "laugh out loud". A contrast indeed with Salvador for whom the red mist probably descended. I guess these very different reactions to the same post illustrate the difficulties faced by moderators when policing any forum.

Whether or not I opt for a Flex Radio or one from another manufacturer I will always keep an eye on this forum which I find both informative and entertaining. Thanks to Flex and all who contribute here.
(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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Actually Sal, I pretty much agree with much of what you just said. I do, however, believe there is such a thing as being overly hyperbolic, this is especially true in the midst of what would otherwise be a reasoned conversation. I think the problem arises when people become offended. That offense could be the result of a personal attack or as a result of the perception one is not displaying the proper amount of loyalty or attribution to the radio or the vendor. When that occurs a negative feedback loop generally develops which is when the thread runs the risk of spiralling out of control. All of this risk could be avoided in a strictly online "I have a problem when I try to do ..." forum. That doesn't mean that would be my first choice but it does resolve the displays of emotion on here.

Paul, it is a very good radio. Operationally it is different.
(Edited)
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Barry N1EU

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I very much appreciate the recent posts by both Sal and Walt!  I think we're all together in wanting open and enthusiastic dialog and investigation.  The stickler and the huge variance is how much bias is brought to the discussion by virtue of owning a given radio.
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Lee, Elmer

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I think bias comes as much from perceived "need" or preference as it does from ownership. You do learn from that discuussion. You tend to need microsecond QSK response, I do not. But it makes me ask myself "why is Barry so hot for that level of qsk?" It's at that blunt interface where knowledge develops.

73. W9OY