I decided to upgrade from the PR781 to the RE27 .

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EV RE27N/D DYNAMIC CARDIOD MIC. I decided to up grade from the PR781 to the RE27 . I still had a few to many say the audio on my 6300 was not as good as it could be and blamed the PR781. Will see how I make out with the new Mic. Any thoughts??
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Don Stefanik

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Posted 4 years ago

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KF4HR

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I'm using a EV RE27N/D on my 6700.  I've gotten excellent reports on my audio.  I suggest reviewing NM9P's adjustment video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LytzQGpE5ZM 
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Don Stefanik

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I received the RE27ND today and have played with the EQ for a little bit. Me thinks it sounds better but will wait till I can talk to some of my friends tonight. Wish there was one of the 6300 guys I could talk too and get an audio report. 

VA3KBC

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Charles - K5UA

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Hi Don,
Got a RE-27ND about 6 weeks ago and have received many excellent audio reports., as well as some really nice mp3 files emailed to me. Also testing out the RE-16, another Electrovoice Vari-D mic . It's a very nice mic with a smaller footprint than the RE27ND. Had an RE27ND years ago and don't know why I sold it. Won't leave the shack again.
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Don Stefanik

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CHARLES...WHAT ARE YOUR EQ SETTINGS. I HAVE BEEN GETTING DIFFERENT REPORTS. SOME GOOD SOME BAD.
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Charles - K5UA

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When I go out to the camp tomorrow I'll post my RE27 EQ settings. It will be a good starting point for you. i also have the low freq roll off engaged. Would be interested in working you to listen to it. My low freq roll-off on the Flex is 100 hz and the high freq roll-off is 3200 hz. I use the Middle Compressor setting. If you want to email me , my email is on QRZ.COM.
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Charles - K5UA

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Don, these are the EQ setting for my RE-27:
63 hz   = -3
125 hz = -4
250 hz =  0
500 hz =  0
1k hz   =  0
2k hz   = +6
4k hz   = +6
8k hz   = +4

Low freq roll-off on the RE-27 is ENGAGED
Flex bandwidth is 100 - 3200 hz
Processor is in DX position

Try that as a starting point.  Remember, different voice characteristics can require different EQ settings, but this should get you into the ballpark.

Good luck, Charles
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Don Stefanik

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Thank you. I will give that a try.
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Don Stefanik

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I too would enjoy having a qso. Storms coming thru tonight so will have to wait. I will email you to set up a qso.  VA3KBC
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Jerry - W2TXB

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I have been using the PR781 since when I had the Flex 5000A, and it remains a great microphone with my 6700. I am also considering the next logical step... the RE-27N/D (or maybe the RE20); the RE20 is said to have a bit more "warmth", while the RE27 reportedly sounds slightly "brighter".

Decisions, decisions...
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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If you desire "warmth" in your audio, you might consider using an external tube-based mic preamp.
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Philip KA4KOE

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I use an EV RE320 and get multiple reports of great audio.
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Larry - WA7LZO

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For best performance with your EV-RE27N/D mic, you will definitely want to consider coupling it with the venerable Symetrix 528E external preamp. This preamp is a legacy analog product, but thankfully, Symetrix is still manufacturing it. Although the 528E is a little bit pricey (street price is about $1,100), I think most serious hams will find it's well worth the extra $'s, in terms of improved audio quality, juxtaposed to the PR-781. Not "night and day" better, but if you do on-air A/B performance evals with discerning listeners, they typically will report the audio quality with the EV-RE27N/D and Symetrix is better than the PR-781. Others will not necessarily be able to tell the difference, but I've found many an old timer ham have very bad hearing, so for such folks, there may be no noticeable delta in perceived audio quality. I figure with this EV mic and Symetrix, you've done your job, best you can. So, now it's up to the listener to decide, and Yes, results will vary. Most importantly, keep in mind with the EV-RE27N/D, you will be using the exact same mic as Rush Limbaugh over his big EIB network, albeit it will not be gold plated (sigh!). I've emailed Rush to find out what company gold plated his mic, and I will post when I get an answer on this. Just emailed Rush late yesterday.
(Edited)
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Jerry - W2TXB

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No answer yet from Rush? I believe his came with the gold plating directly from E-V. 

As a kid, I recall many churches had gold plated E-V microphones (664's and similar)... probably quite common back then. 
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Bob G W1GLV

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That's too expensive for my pocketbook.
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David

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I have been using a RE-27 with my 6700 for several years.  I have found that using a tube pre-amp, between the microphone and the xlr connection, instead of using  the 20 db  mic boost.  I am using a Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC200.  It has received great audio reports.
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Michael - N5TGL

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I've got a RE-320 and love the results.  This is me being picked up in Germany a few weeks back.  I was living in the UK at the time, so that's the reason for the 20 over :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ8inw5dLPI
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Philip KA4KOE

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Slick microphone, ain't it?
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Norm - W7CK

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While reading about the PR320, it seems it is quite a bit hotter than the PR40 which I'm currently using.   I'm finding with the PR40 that I have to have the drive on my 6700 sitting at nearly 100%.  I've thought about getting a mic preamp, but that just adds more junk into the mix (I'm trying to simplify things).  So I guess my question is:  Do you find you still need a mic pre-amp?
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David Livingston

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I use the Pro40 and my microphone stays at 65. Any higher the level goes into the red. 
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Norm - W7CK

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Anyone using a RE320?   I'm thinking of giving one a try.  I'm currently using a PR40 but find I have to have the drive at nearly 100% just to get it to drive the 6700.

I'm wondering how the RE320 is working out for folks.....

Norm
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Michael - N5TGL

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I posted a link to a recording of me using a RE-320 a few posts up.  I run my mic gain at 100% and that works just fine.  I did purchase a small preamp, but even with the metal case and extensive choking, I still had problems with RF feedback.  I was using a random wire at the time, so there was unavoidable RF in the shack.  Without the preamp, it was fine.  I'm not setup stateside yet, but I'll be using a vertical/dipoles/hexbeam so RF feedback should be less of a problem.
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Philip KA4KOE

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Norm.....my RE320 works great with my 6300. Lots of unsolicited "outstanding" audio reports. I use a Symetrix 528E and an Inovonics 222.
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Rich McCabe

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Yea same here. RE320. I was using a PR781.

Huge difference in Audio quality.
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Lee, Elmer

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I'm using a RE320  

My BW is 150hz to 3100hz  100hz is too low 175 works pretty well alsoMic gain is 63
Processor is DX
DEXP is off 


EQ is
63 -8
125 -7
250 -6
500 -2
1K +2
2K +6
4K +7
8K +8


the switch on the mic is flipped toward the strait line 

Get ya in the ball park

73  W9OY
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Norm - W7CK

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Thanks for the info on the RE320 folks.  While the mic is just a little bit hotter, it sounds like the mic gain still needs to be set up at around 100%.  I've been really trying to get buy without a preamp.  I just don't want a bunch of extra wires and RFI prone equipment on the desk. 
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Michael - N5TGL

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Norm,

DId you listen to this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ8inw5dLPI

That is me with RE-320 and mic gain at 100%.  No preamp needed, and running 100% on the preamp doesn't hurt anything.
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Don Stefanik

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YOU SOUND REALLLY GOOD!!
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Lee, Elmer

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I run my mic gain at 63 with the mic strait into the radio. If I run it at 100 I over drive the hell out of the radio
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Michael - N5TGL

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That's because you've boosted the end of the spectrum so much.  I just roll off the bottom end on mine, no need (in my opinion) to boost the top end.  Assuming you are running about 3K wide, boosting 4K and 8K doesn't add anything to your signal.  You're pumping a lot of energy into frequencies outside the passband.
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Lee, Elmer

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I'm pumping no energy into frequencies beyond the passband. The equalizer is an equation
(Edited)
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Ken - NM9P

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Hi Michael,  I hear you are returning to the States,  Welcome back.
I listened to your recording and it sounds great.  

I have found, as you did, that when the EQ allows too much low frequency energy to pass, even when the TX Filter Lo-Cut chops it off, that it somehow seems to overdrive or at least dominate the Processor.  

I always recommend people using PROC in DX or DX+ to set LO-Cut above 150. Preferably above 200.  (My latest weak-signal profile hi-boost profile cuts off at 300 Hz.)  Even then, we need to roll the lows out of TX EQ or the lows will take over the compression routine and not let the processor do its job on the frequencies that ARE being transmitted.

It usually isn't as much a problem when using NORMAL setting of the PROC, except when they turn the bass up really high in an attempt to make their voice sound like Barry White,   Then they create a nasty, almost carrier-like drone at between 80-135 Hz that severely reduces intelligibility and destroys any chance of being heard when they are weak.  (It is also irritating as heck when they are strong!)

Since, as someone from FRS said recently, (I think it was Steve?) the sliders on the TX EQ overlap a little, I have found that some boosting the 4K slider can sometimes smooth the 2K response pattern a little, though if overdone can make you "hissy."  But as you have said, there is no useful cause to have 8K boosted at all.  And if you are setting Lo-Cut above 150Hz it is counter-productive to have 63 Hz boosted.

I demonstrated some of this on my Youtube Tutorials. (www.youtube.com/NM9P

I never did get around to making a chart of the effects of too much or too little gain/cut for the various sliders on the TX EQ.  Though I demonstrated it a little on the videos.  Since we had a few online conversations a couple of years ago I have learned a lot just by playing, recording, and listening to the recordings .  I probably need to update the videos to reflect some of the more recent changes in the processing routines and the Profile organization.

 
On different, but slightly related matter:  
I don't recommend people run in normal SSB channels with HI-Cut over 3000 Hz.  Standard operating practice seems to have gravitated to 3 kHz spacing, and that little bit of extra causes just enough junk for someone spaced 3K away that they need to slide up some more - effectively messing up the whole "even tuning" spacing that people have gotten used to.  Most will move up a whole 1K and then we can't get as many people in the band.

On the other hand.  I have no problem with ESSB, in the sections of the bands where there is room for it.  I even run 4.5-6 KHz wide myself on some of the frequencies where the ESSB guys commonly hang out. The beauty of the Flex is that it is so simple to save a variety of Mic Profiles to make changing from one mode to another almost instantaneous! 

Ken - NM9P
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Lee, Elmer

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I dunno Ken when I make recordings I notice subtle changes in brightness and articulation using both 4K and 8K boosted with a 125 or 150-3100 BW and a RE-320 mic.  I don't notice any hiss.  I'm interested in a highly articulate communication quality but not pinched off.  I can fully modulate the radio at a gain of 63 with plenty of headroom to spare

73  W9OY
(Edited)
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Michael - N5TGL

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Ken, thanks for giving the recording a listen and the comments.  I'm running mine dead flat from 500 Hz on.  I haven't found any need to boost upper frequencies, and I still stick to my old sound engineer traits of cut first, only add if needed, and then in moderation.  The response of the RE-320 is very natural and doesn't need much help.  I just roll off the lower frequencies a bit so I don't sound overly bassy.  I agree that the sliders overlap.  I haven't plotted how the eq works, but it may be like this:



This is why small adjustments can lead to huge response changes.  When I see +8 on settings, you can imagine what's happening to the curve.  Of course, I may be all wet and Flex is controlling the Q of the EQ bands to prevent the above picture.  At any rate, less is more!  :)
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Ken - NM9P

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Lee, I would think the 8K would be too far removed to have any real effect. But perhaps as you said, a very subtle one.

The 4K, yes. There is enough overlap in the EQ response pattern that I use it even with my narrower bandwidths.

By "hissy" I am not talking about background hiss, but refer to excessive sibilance producing "hissy" S's and whistles and "lispy" sounding voices.

Just like bass, high frequencies can be overdone. At some point these excessive highs can overdrive the rig and start producing what I have often heard called "buckshot" to the frequencies above the audio channel.

The neat thing with the flex radios is that by looking at our panadapter, listening to our recordings, or full duplex monitoring, we can usually see and hear when "highly articulate" begins to cross the line.

I have heard you station, and it has always sounded good to me.

My PR-22 usually dives my rig adequately with gain of around 85. But that is with my voice and EQ settings. Different EQ settings will require variation in mic gain. And some people speak into the mike louder that I do.

Mic gain is highly veritable. When people ask me "where should I set my mike gain for xyz microphone?" I always answer, "high enough to do the job with your individual voice, settings, and mic technique."

When I used to work for my brother's lawn mower repair shop, when we trained a new young mechanic who asked how tite to make the head bolts on a Briggs engine, we would joke, "Tighten it till it breaks. Then back it off a quarter turn."

The same goes for mic gain in the 6000..."turn it up till it goes into the red on peaks, the back off until it doesn't."

Ken - NM9P
(Edited)
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Ken - NM9P

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Michael, I remember one of the engineers at Flex saying that even though the sliders have individual gain settings of +/- 10 dB, there is enough overlap that in the overlap zone there can be as much as 20 dB variance.

I also believe in cut first, boost later. So I begin profiling a new mic by starting with a flat EQ and cutting the low ends until that sounds (and looks) better, the. I bring up the articulates frequencies to give me the edge I may need for weak signal, DXing, or contesting. (Three different profiles with different bandwidths, also).

For my casual and rag chewing profiles, I shoot for a much more balanced, natural sound.

Sometime this season I am going to break out my old EV-664 "Hammer" and give that a try on the 6500 again, just for giggles. I used it with my 1500 and then with the 6500 for a few weeks when I first got the rig until I got the PR-22UT. It sounded good, but they were still perfecting the EQ and processing routine. I am sure I could get it to sound a lot better now.

Ken - NM9P
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Lee, Elmer

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I turned OFF the EQ with my RE-320 and it still just drives the radio just below ALC at 63 on the mic gain, with the mic plugged into the front panel jack.  I measured ALC using FlexMeter and both off and on readings peak at -3 dbFS.   I next set all sliders to -8 and still could drive the radio to -3dbFS with the mic gain set to 63.  I next turned all the sliders to +9 and still -3 dbFS on the ALC meter.

This would tend to indicate the "boost and cut" are normalized and basically just parametrically modify the mic's waveform without boosting or cutting power.  This means boosting or cutting has no effect on drive.  This is a good thing to know since it changes how you think about setting EQ compared to an analogue circuit.  So all of the analogue  abba dabba about how you never want to boost but only cut goes out the window.

73  W9OY
(Edited)
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Michael - N5TGL

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Lee, thanks for doing that check!  Very good info to know.  I see that you have yours plugged into the front panel jack, I'm plugged into the rear.  I have to run mine at 100 gain and use the +20 db to peak at the -3db level.  Now you've got me wondering if something is squirelly with my setup?  Sounds fine though, as you can tell up above.
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Ken - NM9P

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Lee, Michael - I have found that when I make adjustments to TX EQ I often need to tweak the Mic Gain just a bit (Usually just a digit or two up or down) to keep the Mic Level in the proper zone, and out of the "Red Zone."

But if PROC is active, even at the NORMAL setting, there isn't much actual effect on power output.  (And also I would assume ALC feedback, though I don't use ALC myself)  The PROC does a good job of keeping drive levels pretty even and under control.

Michael, are you using XLR - XLR cables, or XLR to TRS?  Could you have one of the cable ends that is improperly shorting the "Cold" side of the balanced cable to the "Shield?"  I bought a cheap studio boom that had the cable wired incorrectly, negating the advantage of using the balanced feed.  I seem to remember that my drive was lower, too.  (But it has been over three years, I can't remember for sure.)

(BTW.  a couple of posts back, my "Auto-Corrupt" changed my statement...
 "Mic gain is highly variable." to "Mic gain is highly veritable."  
But I couldn't edit it once someone had commented afterwards.

I'm not even sure what that would mean....++Veritable: - synonyms:realbona fide, authentic, genuine, indubitable, utter;   informal   sure as shootin'    "a veritable price explosion" ++  )
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Lee, Elmer

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Mike

I also have +20db turned on.  With it turned off I can almost make ALC (-5 dbFS on FlexMeter with gain at 100, but not quite.  

The OP was worried about adequate gain from an Electrovoice mic compared to a Heil mic and I just wanted to assure him gain is adequate to abundant whether at 63 or 100 on the mic gain with the EV.  At some point I will plug the balanced cable into the mic and see how she does using that circuit.  I use the single end cable because the way my PTT is rigged up, it's easier to use.  

I don't think you have anything wrong, your audio sounds outstanding on the youtube.  If it ain't broke... clearly yours ain't broke.  Given the way it works I'm not sure it's rational to look at a graphic filter as modifying power bands anymore, but to think of it more as a waveform synthesizer which is then hard limited by the bandwidth filter.  In my experience in tuning a mic's sound, the single most critical choice is low cut on the band width filter, and second is high cut for a given mic.  If you get low cut right everything else systematically falls into place.  High cut determines your QRM profile to other stations on the band.

True enough I was surprised at how the EQ software works.  In the 70's I was involved with pro-audio and studio design, and Flex's approach is a much different environment compared to then.  Graphic EQ back then did involve mixing alternating filter outputs onto the + - inputs of a differential amp and the best way to balance that was as you describe, because the alternating outputs would tend to cancel 2nd order distortion.  Now it seems to be the slider simply sets a parameter in an equation.  Since there are no mixing products or distortion due to the electronics to worry about it seems you can do things you NEVER would have considered before.
 
73  W9OY
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Lee, Elmer

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Ken

I think the processor works to increase average power dramatically without much effect on peak power.  SSB is often looked at as a low duty cycle mode relatively speaking compared to AM.  SSB linear amps back in the day were often home brewed out of TV sweep tubes and small transformers from a junk TV chassis and relied on this low duty cycle idea.  The Flex processor allows for 2.4 dB (nearly double) increased average power.  What this means is you better have adequate power supply components in your linear amplifier.

Veritable from the Latin Veritas: truth

73  W9OY
(Edited)
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Ken - NM9P

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I was every enthused back when they announced that they were adopting the new routine for the Processor.  It has really made a difference in the performance of the rig.  When I move from NOR to DX or DX+ it always has a very noticeable effect on readability on the other end.  Of course I only use DX or DX+ with my "high performance" DXing/Weak signal/Contesting profiles when I also limit the low-end because if can get to sound pretty nasty if the filters and TX EQ are not set properly with PROC.  

I also remember FRS warning people that driving amplifiers with inadequate power supplies might find that they can experience excessive heating, or worse.  If the amp's power supply drops regulation due to the excessive load, it could even add to distortion.

(In guitar amps, it is known as "SAG" when the power supply SAGs and cannot deliver immediate full power as the note is played.  It adds a "spongey" texture to the sound of the guitar.  This can be very nice on a guitar, but BAD on a radio transmitter!)

Re: "Veritable" Mic gain...that is why I laughed because it made it nonsensical.  "Mic gain is highly truthful, (genuine, authentic)..."  ha.  My mike gain is more truthful/authentic than yours.  Perhaps that is what some people mean when they say "That rig sounds "Righteous!"
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Lee, Elmer

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In this day and age it's nice to get a little truth 
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Michael - N5TGL

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Ken,

Hmmmmm, you bring up a very interesting point on the wiring of the mic cable.  I'm using XLR-XLR, and yep, it's on a cheap boom stand (q-mic.)  Looks like I might need to pull the connectors apart tonight and verify the wiring.  I may have another mic cable laying around that I can swap out for a quick check with no disassembly.

Thanks!!!  Might be on to something here!
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Michael - N5TGL

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Ken,

Hmmmmm, you bring up a very interesting point on the wiring of the mic cable.  I'm using XLR-XLR, and yep, it's on a cheap boom stand (q-mic.)  Looks like I might need to pull the connectors apart tonight and verify the wiring.  I may have another mic cable laying around that I can swap out for a quick check with no disassembly.

Thanks!!!  Might be on to something here!
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W7NGA

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Tweaking audio is fun but in reality, unless you have a S9+ signal, the differences manifest as slight coloring differences of little benefit. And, the differences in microphones are generally no more than what can be compensated for via EQ. Listen to the Flex forum, and you just won't hear grand differences in signals, including stations priding themselves on mega-dollar audio installations (many posting here). In fact, the cruel irony is that when conditions are poor and the SNR is low, it benefits the listener to purposefully skew the response away from anything sounding natural. Opening up the spectrum far beyond 3.3k affords some experimentation, but Flex Signature radios rarely measure well with the ESSB crowd. On the other hand, some of the best AM signals are Flex 5000's with external and extended audio.

W7NGA
Seaside, Oregon
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Bill - N4APG

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I'm looking at adding an EV RE320 as well. What connecting cabling and PTT switching are best for the Flex 6x00 series radios? The EV RE20 is a classic, but the RE320 seems better for SSB.
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Cal Spreitzer

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Hi Bill,  I've been using the EV RE320 with my Flex 6500.  It takes a standard 3 Pin XLR cable for the balanced (back) mic input.  The Flex 6300 requires the front 8 Pin foster which is compatible with the Heil/YAESU Balanced pinout cable. 

The Flex/RE320 sounds great!  I always receive unsolicited great audio reports with it! 

73,
Cal/N3CAL
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Lee, Elmer

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I use a RE 320. Imho just buy the heil yaesu cable. I spent a couple days trying to build a cable that had ptt but could never get the buzz out.

73 W9OY
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Jerry - W2TXB

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Just received a RE27 N/D this afternoon (bought it slightly used online for half the price of a brand new one) and finally got a few minutes to install and (initially) test it using the settings suggested by K5UA. Audio reports (no external pre-amp) are really favorable so far. Granted, the PR781 is a heck of a nice mic, but the E-V definitely kicks it up a notch.
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K2CB Eric Dobrowansky

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I've tried a lot of the popular mics on the 6500. PR781, PR40, RE27, SM7B, and a few others. What I have found is that while they can all be made to sound "good" with the built in EQ, to sound "great", they all needed a good preamp/processor between the mic and radio. Personally, I preferred the smoothness of the SM7B. It does not suffer from proximity effect or other common issues.


As to the preamp/processors - I've tried the W2IHY combo, Symentrix 528e, 628, Aphex 230 / Channel, ART Mic Channel, and the Wheatstone M1. The Wheatstone M1 is the winner hands down, but at a price of just under $1k. They almost never show up on the used market. What does that say? But a close second is the Symetrix 528e, which can be found regularly on eBay for $300 or less, if you don't mind some scratches and rack marks on the unit. Even better is the 628 digital version, but they are rare to come by, and run around $500.


Grab a 528e for $300, and it will be the best $300 you spent.


Eric

K2CB
(Edited)
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ka7gzr

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I really don't think the various Mics and EQs make that much difference compared to what the internal Flex EQ can do on the 6000 series. Currently I have a RE27 and the Yaesu M1 on line. My external EQ is a Symetrix Air Tools Voice Processor 2X. In the drawer is the Symmetric 528E, Heil PR40 and Electra-Voice RE20. All are fun to play with but if you are trying to decide where to spend your hard earned amateur radio dollars this would be secondary.

Jim

ka7gzr  

(Edited)
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Jerry - W2TXB

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Just for reference (and everybody else's settings may vary as everybody else's voice characteristics differ as well), here are my settings for the RE-27N/D:

 63 Hz = 5
125 Hz = 0
250 Hz = 1
500 Hz = 1
1 kHz = 2
2 kHz = 6
4 kHz = 6
8 kHz = 5

Mic Gain = 60
PROC = Off (although DX setting is good at times)
DEXP = 70
Low Cut = 100; High Cut = 3200

So far, it is working well... if there is any further "tweaking", it will be in very small amounts, but I doubt it will be necessary.