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How to obtain SO2R 2BSIQ or a 400 QSO rate w Flex

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
edited April 2020 in SmartSDR for Windows
Follwing a discussion with Jon EA2OT on how to obtain the effective 2BSIQ QSO rate that well known contester CT1BOH introduced here is the continuing of this evaluation we started on another thread. Background: "Thank you again for the feedback. I can ́t tell you how to solve the audio switching issue because I "still" don ́t own a 6600 or 6700. I will really appreciate if you can continue with some more tests. I have been using a 6300 for almost 3 years but I just sold it to buy a new one. The purchase decision of a 6600 will depend on these audio switching capabilities. As I explained before, I have been doing 2BSIQ operation during the last 3 CQ WW CW using 2 radios and a Microham u2R. With this device it is possible to configure the audio you want to hear at each "QSO moment". The configuration I was using is as follows: - Stereo audio selected on N1MM+. If no TX, RX1 in left ear, RX2 in right ear - Microham receives the info from the 2 radio ́s PTTs from N1MM. When TX1, RX2 in both ears. When TX2, RX1 in both ears. Could you please try to make the following tests? Test 1: Please configure N1MM in SO2R operation, create 2 different radios with one CAT asigned to each one ot them (Slice A = Radio 1 with CAT1 asigned, Slice B = Radio 2 CAT2 asigned). Then choose Stereo mode with tilde key and select "Swap other" and "Focus other", and very important, select "Run" on both radios as well. At this moment, if no TX, you shall be hearing both radios in Stereo (Slice A on left ear, Slice B on right ear), is that correct? Then, if TX1 you shall hear RX2 on both ears (or are you hearing RX2 just on right ear?) Opposite situation when TX2... This audio switching is happening with the help of "Swap other" or "focus other" I ́m not sure which one of them (Sorry I can ́t test it at this moment on N1MM). Test 2: If the previous test is not working as expected, please try using "Dueling CQ" feature of N1MM with "Ctrl+B". An extract from N1MM manual explaining what "Dueling CQ" mode does: Dueling CQ's will send CQ alternately on each radio (Ctrl+B) If dueling CQ's is enabled, and CQ sent then both radios become Run radios Ctrl+F1 or Ctrl+Enter will not start Dueling CQ Dueling SSB and CW CQ's (different modes in each Entry window) are supported When you disable Dueling CQs, the pre-existing SO2R options are restored I hope one ot these 2 ways to operate 2BSIQ will work! Cross my fingers. Please let me know if it works. Thank you! Jon, EA2OT"
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Answers

  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited January 2019
    Hi Kari,

    Thank you for opening this post. I hope we will be able to find a way to operate 2BSIQ with a 6600 or 6700 and N1MM. As I said in the other post where this conversation started, I have been doing 2BSIQ or Dueling CQs since 3 years with 2 radios and a Microham u2R, and I would like to do it with just a 6600 or a 6700. My purchase decision will be based on the possibility to do 2BSIQ with a flex radio with 2 SCUs.

    To elaborate more about how the Microham u2R handles the audio switching for 2BSIQ operation, the device comunicates with N1MM to receive Stereo or Mono status (switched with tilde key in N1MM) and also the PTT status. Here is an extract of the microham user manual to elaborate on how it works:



    The comunication with N1MM is handled by the MK2R protocol despite the OTRSP protocol Flex radios are using exchanges the same information as far as I know, so there should be no problem on that. The important point here is the last sentence of the photo: The "Stereo" state overrides all other states. This means that if Stereo Mode is selected on N1MM, when no TX, you will have stereo audio on your headphones and when you TX on one radio/slice you will hear the other one in both ears.

    I think N1MM "focus other" function shall handle the audio switching when TXing as we expect when both radios/slices are in RUN mode, please let me know the result of your testings.

    Thank you!

    Jon, EA2OT
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited January 2019
    Hi Jon, sorry for "slow reply" but I have started testing.

    Sorry to say but N1MM with one keyboard only does not produce what we want (mono mode when other radio transmits and then stereo when no radio transmits) . With stereo mode or mono (both ears to one radio) N1MM keeps the same audio pattern regardless of which "QSO moment" to talk 2BSIQ language. If you want to hear split audio between switching TX1 to 2 or vice versa you have go for it the whole time (unless switching to mono mode).

    This applies to alternate CQ as well.
    "Focus other" no difference.

    Then I tried two keyboards but the audio switching was not correct all times. Sometimes when doing CQ on radio 2 the audio on radio 1 was muted. So someting is not working as expected.

    73 Kari SM0HRP
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    HiJon, how do you connect radio 1 and 2 output (the CW key) of mikro2R to your 6300 with only on keyer input? 73 Kari
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Thank´s for the feedback Kari,

    I´m really surprised about the behaviour. When operating normal SO2R, I also like to switch from stereo when no TX to be able to RX both radios and then change to mono when one radio is TXing to take the biggest profit of S&P with second radio making use of both ears. Using Stereo mode all the time and having one ear "muted" when its assigned radio is transmting is not the way people do SO2R nor 2BSIQ.

    However, it seems you nearly achieved to do it using 2 keyboards. Maybe this is related to "focus other" and "swap other" functions from N1MM. Maybe you could make some tests playing with these functions?

    I hope someone from the Flex team will read this post and may consider what we are talking here. Maybe N1MM team has to be involved also? I would appreciate any feedback from Flex on this matter and I will be happy to contact the N1MM to request some modifications if needed. N1MM team has been very reactive when I found some bugs using 2 keyboards and I think they will be ready to modify what is needed.

    The purchase of a 6600 will need to wait some time, while I can´t use it for SO2R and 2BSIQ operation :-(

    73! Jon, EA2OT
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Kari,

    I was using another radio together with the 6300. The 6300 was connected to just one output.

    73! Jon
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited January 2019
    Hi again,

    I just found this post which is related to what we are talking here:
    https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/advanced-so2r

    It seems the problem was detected 1 year ago...

    I hope Flex could give an update on this? maybe it has been addressed during the last smartsdr updates and we just need to know how to configure it?

    Thank you

    Jon, EA2OT
  • Andy - KU7T
    Andy - KU7T Member ✭✭
    edited January 2019
    I am currently a SO2R beginner but trying to practice in most contests now (and brining up more antennas...).  How N1MM+ works with the Flex 6600M seems to work perfectly for me right now. My goal is also, as yours, to do this without any additional hardware (no microHam, etc.). Not sure if I would want to switch the stereo on/off as you are describing above, but in either case this may already be supported. 

    Mave you tried macros? Look at http://n1mm.hamdocs.com/tiki-index.php?page=Macros&highlight=macros and try out macros including these strings: ADVSO2R, STEREO and/or OTRSP.  

    Let us know what you find. Very interested if this works or if Flex or N1MM+ needs to add more support..

    73
    Andy (member of N1MM+ dev team)
    KU7T
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited January 2019
    Hi Andy, thanks for the input. Glad to hear you are digging into SO2R. It really opens up new possibilities.
    I cannot find the STEREO macro for SO2R. Only a STEREOON for LPT.
    The 2BSIQ scheme really makes SO2R more effecient. To be able to switch to stereo mode when no TX is a "must".
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Jon, how can I reach you over email?
  • N2TTA
    N2TTA Member ✭✭
    edited April 2020
    Hi guys
    How you handle SSB pile up on both radio? When you need quickly answers to second radio
    Before when I used 2 radio, I used two foot switch, and was easy to answer at any radio hands free.
    Any idea how to connect two footswitch to maestro or to logger?
    I know N1MM and DXLog has those options, but is not just plug and play, requires some work
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Kari,

    Please use ea2ot (at) yahoo.com

    Thanks!
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Andy,

    I didn´t thought about N1MM macros! Maybe {STEREOON} and {STEREOOFF} macros may do the trick.

    As far as I know, ADVSO2R is a feature from the former N1MM but is not used anymore. The OTRSP macros will depend on how the Flex radio reacts to these macros, and I think will be similar to the reaction to "focus other" and "swap other".

    So, maybe a try with {STEREOOFF} at the begining of all the predefined CW messages and {STEREOON} may work.

    Thank´s for your involvement in this matter. It´s very much appreciated.

    Best regards,

    Jon, EA2OT
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    I agree that Stereo mode when no TX is a "must" to do any serious SO2R, and mandatory for 2BSIQ.

    I suggest to try with {STEREOOFF} macro at the begining of all the predefined CW messages and {STEREOON} at the end. The behaviour of these macros is like tilde key, I tested it by myself some time ago.
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Yuriy,

    I mostly use these techniques on CW mode, but I tried SSB SO2R mainly using recorded messages and also using 1 foot pedal to fast switch between Radio1 and Radio2 focus and using "VOX" on the radios to answer. The footswitch was hooked to the Microham u2R device but can be hooked to N1MM using a COM or parallel port. This is the option you have to choose in the N1MM configurer:
    Switch Radios - Pressing Footswitch will switch the radios (in SO2R)

    Another Idea if you don´t want to use "VOX" is to connect one footswitch to N1MM to switch between radio/slice1 and radio/slice2 and then connect another footswitch to your Flex as a PTT control.

    If you don´t want to mess up connecting the footswitch to N1MM, you can also use the "PAUSE" key to switch between radios and then use a footswitch connected to your Flex for PTT control.

    Best regards,

    Jon, EA2OT
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Jon, tried this but it does not the trick. However got some real good advice from Nathan N4YDU which brings me close to the final solution. Soon we will be there. So you go ahead and place your order for a new Flex
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Jon, just wanted to say that I got 2BSIQ working today after lots of testing with macros. I made a video that I will load up later when back from work assignment.
    I have left my remote QTH where my station is so I have not all macro info here.
    I wanted to tell you.
    73 Kari.
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Andy, could you tell me what "activate RX" means in the {OTRSP} macros? I cannot see a defintion. 73 Kari
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Kari!

    That´s really very good news! I really appreciate your efforts and I´m looking forward to see your video. I´m going to place my order, I hope to have the new rig in the coming weeks to play with it and get it ready for the next contest :-)

    73! Jon
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Great to know it! As far as I know, Nathan was using Flex6600M in his last contests so he has for sure some experience with it. If you are reading this thread, thank you also for your help Nathan!

    73! Jon
  • Andy - KU7T
    Andy - KU7T Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Kari,

    I found this in the revision log of N1MM+:

    Version 1.0.5943 (October 11, 2016)
    ...
    Added {OTRSPOTHER RX} macro. Sends the OTRSP RX command to the OTRSP device to activate RX corresponding to the currently inactive radio.
    For example, if Radio 1 currently has keyboard focus and the {OTRSPOTHER RX} macro is invoked, the OTRSP RX2 command is sent to the OTRSP device, 
    but keyboard focus remains on Radio 1. (Coded by N2IC)
    ....

    Hope this helps,

    73
    Andy
    KU7T
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Jon, I made this video rapidly. I hope it shows that it works. I got a "transmit slice not selected" message once as you see. I may have changed the delay switching or used the wrong winkeyer.
    See here: https://youtu.be/fUlysbfSkX4.
    73 Kari
    P.S. Look at Maestro and Speaker symbol (sometimes crossed when muted slice and other slice in mono) to see when stereo or mono).D.S.
  • Andy - KU7T
    Andy - KU7T Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Cool. Thanks for sharing. Can you share your the important changes to your macro file? I am curios to know where you ended up using the OSTRP or STEREO macros...

    Thanks,
    Andy
    KU7T
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Andy, yes I will when I get there to my remote QTH (some 120 km away). It was a lot of tweaking... To be honest I am not sure it is the best way. 
    Did you see tha "transmit slice messages"? I do not beleive I made any changes to the one you gave me. 
    73 Kari
  • Andy - KU7T
    Andy - KU7T Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Kari,
    I still see the message "transmit slice messages" occasionally.  However, it does not seem to mess up the timing or PTT switching between N1MM+ and the Flex if the 
    QSK setting in the radio is set to 0 (as discussed before). Flex is aware of this as a bug and promised to work on it. 

    BTW, I am practicing with the N1MM+ Morserunner training mode (2 Morserunner instances, one for each slice, 2 keyboards, slices in in different ears, 6600M realistically keyed via CAT and power turned to 0W, 2 dummy loads connected). Very, very nice way to practice. Give it a shot.

    73
    Andy
    KU7T

  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Andy, cool. How well does morserunner in SO2R work? Tried a year ago but many functions not working. How do you differentiate morserunner for two slices? 73 Kari
  • Andy - KU7T
    Andy - KU7T Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Kari, 

    we are getting off-topic now. Lets take it to email. Please little r me at ku7t [at] ku7t [dot] org and we can discuss in person.

    73
    Andy
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Kari,

    Thank you very much for the video, you made it! I ́m curious to see the macros you used to see how difficult it has been.

    Regarding 2BSIQ MorseRunner training, I suggest to try DXLog Dual Morse Runner trainer, you can train for 10 minutes straight in the free version.

    Here ́s an example of how it looks and the rate some people like N6MJ are able to achieve: https://youtu.be/HuiCch0uUqE

    73! Jon
  • Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP
    Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi John, thanks. Yes I have tried DXLog but I cannot figure out how to get the stereo mode in "Time slot 4". And often when i stereo mode DXLog changes by itself to mono mode. Are you sure N6MJ works in full 2BSIQ mode? I will send you an email later in afternoon John 73s P.S. I have now tested two keyboards in N1MM and you are right it is easier. My prejudges fooled me. I can easily come up to 200 QSO/h. This with morserunner only - no radio. D.S.
  • Jon_EA2W
    Jon_EA2W Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hi Kari,

    I just sent you an email but I think it could be interesting to others how to setup DXlog for training 2BSIQ. N6MJ is working in full 2BSIQ as far as I know.

    I suggest to open the “Operating info” window in DXlog where you can see the TX/RX status of each Radio. I´m using 2 keyboards and in the “Operating” tab in DXlog I select “Listen to both radio (headphone split)”. That´s the way I use it to hear in Stereo while not transmitting.

    73! Jon
  • Bill - W9KKN
    Bill - W9KKN Member ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Kari, any chance you could share the macros you ended up making for this? I've put 2 & 2 together and I think I have this mostly working, but want to see another example...

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