How much Output Power out of Power Genius XL Amp with 110VAC versus 220VAC input

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How much Output Power out of Power Genius XL Amp with 110VAC versus 220VAC input 

73
Mike
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Michael Aust

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Posted 2 years ago

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Michael Coslo

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Usually the same, you just draw twice the current from the lines. So much better to put in the 240 volt line.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Nope. It's limited to protect the power supply and your wiring. 
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Mark - N7MHB

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I think I read somewhere where if on 120 its only 1KW.  I haven't been able to find it again so I could be wrong
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Mark is correct.  It is ~1KW
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Michael Coslo

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Okay, could be. Full legal is very taxing on a normal 115 Volt circuit. You'd probably want a 30 amp circuit.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Yep. And if you're installing a 30A 120v circuit, you might as well just install a 240v 20A circuit. There is really nothing that uses 30A at 120v. Most high drain appliances such as dryers, air conditioners and electric stoves will use a 240v circuit (208v in NYC or buildings with 3⌀ wiring). 
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Milen KG2C

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There's and exceptional to that. My electrician told me that 240v is simply not available in the building so the only thing he could do is give me a 120v 30A dedicated line to the amp. I don't know how correct he is but it seems a waste to run such a nice amplification on 120v.
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Mark - N7MHB

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You still get 1KW and thats 10X better then 100w
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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@Milen

If you are in the USA, the NORMAL supply is 240V to your service panel.  This is split into 2 x 120V legs with a Neutral in between. 

I suspect that what your electrician may be telling you is that one of the 120V legs in the service panel is full so he has no room to install a breaker across two legs for 240V.

Frankly the wire size for 20A @240V is a 12/3 Romex wire @250' = $108

While for 30A @120V is a 10/2 Romex wire @250' = $118

So the costs of materials will be the same.

The only other thing I can think of that might cause the 120V restriction is that you are fed from a 110V Metering Subpanel so it would require a new subpanel to get 240V

Question:  Do you have a Electric Stove or Electric Dryer?

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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Milen, I see you live in Queens. Your electrician is correct since NYC is 3 phase distribution (I think it is the only locale in the USA with 3 phase being standard for residences). Therefore 240v with two hots and a neutral is not available. I believe you may be able to get 208v, however using 2 legs of the 3 phases which is used in some places. A lot of 240v equipment will run just fine on 208v and in fact some of it is designed for dual voltages. I believe the PGXL's switching power supply should work fine on 208v. 
(Edited)
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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@Ria

I did not realize that there were any 3 phase residential power systems still in use in the USA... Learned something new.today.


BTW... 3 Phase residential services are quite common in the EU (UK and Germany)  so I suspect that the PowerGenius will be able to perform Ok on 208V
(Edited)
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Yes, it should be because Japan is 100/200V as well. Most switching power supplies accept a continuous range from about 90-250v, 47-63Hz so it accepts all residential voltage and frequency with some headroom built in. 
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Milen KG2C

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Thanks, Ria and Howard. Yes I also had read that 240V should be a common option available in the US (for washers and driers) and when I told him that, he said this is not the case in this building because it is not provided by the power company so there's nothing that could be done on our end.
I didn't know about the 208V option so I will ask him next time I see him. I currently have an AL-80B and my main reason for not even considering an upgrade to 1,5kW was because I thought that 240V is absolutely required for full power output and smooth running of the amp.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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BTW the 3 phase in Europe is 400v (classified, in reality it is about 380v), not 230v. For residences you are not getting that installed. Each circuit is single phase at 230v. So the distribution is 3 phase but you only get 1 of those phases. If you want 3 phase you'll likely have to pay the commercial rate. 

Similarly in NYC it is 3 phase distribution but homes are wired for 1 or 2 (3 wire 120/208) of the phases if they have things like central air that needs 208v. 

( I have spent way too much time in server rooms...)

Ria
(Edited)
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Milen, I would ask, but depending on how old your building is it may not be available. He is correct in that it would require a service upgrade from Con Ed if it is not wired already. That is thou$ands. 

NYC is really an island unto itself.  :)
(Edited)
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Peter K1PGV, Elmer

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Thank you Ria, for the education on residential power systems. I *lived* in NYC and didn't know the info you provided about 3 phase systems in NYC. And I'm the kind of person who typically absorbs this type of trivia. Thank you!

Peter
K1PGV
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I lived in 3 boroughs - Manhattan, Queens and Brooklyn. Was never happier to get out, even if it was to NJ.

However I worked for a state Gov't contractor and we would install servers in datacenters across the city, hence why I know this stuff about power systems. 

Ria
(Edited)
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Milen KG2C

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So I guess it must look something like this, except I don't get all three w/o an expensive upgrade.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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That's correct. It's 120/208. Around here only commercial customers like fast food outlets, supermarkets and gas stations have it, as well as larger buildings like churches.
(Edited)
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k3Tim

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If one could get 208 3 phase the AC to DC conversion would be really smooth so the caps wouldn't have. Realizing this is a switching supply it would seem 3phase would make the supply happy. 
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Larry - W0NQW

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Along this same line, what type of 220V plug is used on the amp.  I am installing a new 220v line to get ready for the amp, but do not know what outlet to install.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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It comes with bare leads. You choose the plug. I would recommend getting a NEMA 6-20R installed, which accepts either a 15 or 20 amp 240V straight blade plug. You can get a twist lock if you want as well but they're really unnecessary unless it's in a high foot traffic environment or an environment subject to shock and vibration.

Interestingly enough, I believe the amp comes with an IEC C20 type receptacle on the power supply chassis and you can get a molded cord set with an appropriate plug on the end. Digikey sells them. I have a few left over from old storage arrays with a 6-20 plug on the end.

Ria
(Edited)
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Mark - N7MHB

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there are a couple different types of 220 plugs.  get the specs for what comes with it.  Not sure if the spec sheet is that detailed yet.
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Larry - W0NQW

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I know about the different plugs/outlets, that is why I am asking.  I have not seen anything published, but am sure there are testers/developers that know the type of outlet that is required. 
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Ned K1NJ

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  Larry,
              A plug is not supplied with the amp.  Ask the electrician installing the
220 service to recommend an outlet and plug combination.  Tell him what
you are doing and perhaps he will supply one for you.

          Enjoy your new amp.,
                                                  Ned,  K1NJ


                       
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Larry - W0NQW

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Thanks for the info.  I will wait until I get amp and read the manual to find out the AC current  requirement.  I am installing the line myself (legal where I live).
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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You know this is addressed in the New Product FAQ.
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/new-flexradio-products-faq

What are the power requirements for producing full legal limit RF power output?
A power rating of 20A @ 220 VAC (50 or 60 Hz) is required to produce full RF output.  The amplifier will operate on 110 VAC, but full RF power output cannot be achieved. Please consult a licensed electrician before installing any new electrical service.
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Larry - W0NQW

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Thanks a bunch.  I missed that.  I will now get my outlet installed and so I will be ready to pug it in upon arrival.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Get a NEMA 6-20R installed with 12 gauge wire and a double pole 20A breaker.  This way you can use either a 15A or 20A plug in the outlet. No neutral is needed with this kind of receptacle, only the two hots and an earth. 
(Edited)
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Or get one of these, so you can plug in two amps at once!

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20...
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K2CB Eric Dobrowansky

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Or get one of these, so you can plug in two amps at once!

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20...
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I was planning to get a 2nd circuit installed here so I could EME while working HF, lol.
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Ned K1NJ

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    As long as we're on the "power input" subject, what power input will the
antenna genius tuner require?

          Ned,  K1NJ


                    
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I believe it could be powered from the coax and by the Power Genius XL. But a lot of this is TBD. I would imagine that it would be the same as any tuner - 13.8V DC at a few amps.
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Varistor

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How much power the amp can deliver very much depends on the quality of the power supply. A friend and I are building a solid state amp based on a pair of 1K80 transistors. The optimum drain voltage turned out to be 65V so that we can optimize the output transformer using commercially available coax wire (e.g., 18 Ohm) and ferite toroids. In this configuration the amp delivers 2.7 KW before it goes into compression. No time limit...measured over decades, not hours.

So to achieve this level of performance we ended up buying a Chinese switching power supply that delivers 6000W over a very wide range of input voltage, including 110V. Don't think many commercial amp manufacturers go into this type of engineering.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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6KW on a 110v circuit is impractical on most house wiring I think. 
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Varistor

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If you are thinking of the 1K80 as a higher power drop in replacement of other LDMOS chips you are missing the point of these chips. By many miles.

The 1K80 opens up huge design opportunities because of the higher drain voltage. 65V is ideal to have two chips in a push-pull design, without a combiner, with a totally linear output transformer from 1.8 to 60 MHz. None of the current LDMOS chips offer such flexibility.

The solid state amps world is full of copycats repeating an old Motorola design from the last century.
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Michael Aust

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Like to know more about the 65V supply 
Is it Mil Spec for your Airplane?
73 Mike

(Edited)
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Varistor

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At a bit over $800 the power supply is the single most expensive part of our design. For most applications a PSU like this one will be plenty:

http://s.aliexpress.com/mEf63uuu

Assuming 60% efficiency you should be able to deliver about 2400W out. That is, the amp would have plenty of headroom to do RTTY at legal power all weekend long.

The key, again, is redesigning the output transformer and the RF deck to take full advantage of the higher drain voltage. The century old EB104 board and the NXP reference designs are poor choices for the 1K80.

If you look at what people are doing with the current LDMOS chips, they all show a drop of power at about 15 MHz. The standard answer is that this is a "feature" of the chip and the chip is not intended for Ham use. This all goes away with a properly designed output transformer and you get a beautifully flat Pout curve at full power from 1.8 to 60 MHz.
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Peter K1PGV, Elmer

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@N2WQ Are you going to make your design public?

Peter
K1PGV
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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The 1.8 kw chips I believe are going to be used in high end microwave ovens. I saw an article somewhere, I think it was EE times. They can modulate it and do things like beamforming without having a mechanical turntable. It's so good they can boil an egg without water and without it exploring. I'm just looking forward to defrosting meatballs without a steaming outside and ice on the inside :)
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Varistor

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The short answer is that most likely not. Our goal is to transition my friend's existing line of GU74-based amps to solid state.

The long answer is that we are not doing anything super secret. It is basic application of Ohm's law, experience designing broadband matching networks, and baseline amp design experience.
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@n2wq

Yes, your right, simply paralleling of two 1K80's devices with package parasitics Cout on the Drain will cause the dip for the proper RLopt Load Line >15MHz.

Using a transformer removes this issue by looking at the One Port Large Signal model, helps in wider BW ( Fano's Limit )

The downside is that %PAE takes a hit with a transformer but the upside is 
better Bandwidth, so it's a tradeoff in SSPA design and as well as $$ cost.

The Optimum RLopt on the output for a Class AB amp is DCIV Delta Delta Vds/Delta Delta Ids and Cout, from there the package parasitics need to taken into account with
3D EM Solver like HFSS CAD Simulator unless you have actual Load Pull Data from a Load Pull Tuner.

Load Pull Systems to see the affects of Fundamental and Harmonic terminations
are important in the design approach for a more refined approach in SSPA
design

Harmonic terminations will affect %PAE and level of the Imd's ( 3rd, 5th, products's) as you reach P1dB and into saturation 

A bad RLopt, will cause the ellipse of the Load Line to shift (Circle across the DCIV plane**  ) due to Cdrain effects also to cause lower Pout, higher gate currents, etc.
( ** RF swing across the Delta Vds and Delta Ids swings from the ideal DCIV 
curves of ( Pulsed DCIV on device to prevent sag in DCIV curves and Non-Linear Model Characterization) the 1K80 device )).
(Edited)
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Peter K1PGV, Elmer

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>The long answer is that we are not
>doing anything super secret. It is basic
>application of Ohm's law, experience designing
>broadband matching networks, and baseline
>amp design experience.

LOL.  Yes, of course.  That's the definition of what's required to build any PA, really.  There's an awful lot that's contained in that "experience" thingy, though.

I was just thinking that the ham community could benefit from a fully-formed, well considered, reference design for such a cutting edge amp.

Peter
K1PGV
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Michael Aust

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PA design is more than Ohm's Law
LOL
Mike
PA designer
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Varistor

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Honestly, I am surprised that so much attention is being paid to power and SWR ratings than to T/R delay time, especially in SO2R mode. The issue is that in SO2R mode you cannot select the proper band for the LPF prior to PTT from the radio (you don't know which radio will "ask" to TX).

So the issue becomes how quickly can the controller determine the proper LPF band selection. 6-10 ms for the relay. Maybe 10-20 ms for the controller? How about the broadcast packets? It quickly adds up.
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Varistor

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Prior to embarking on this journey I had zero amp knowledge despite my formal engineering degree. Working with someone who's been designing, building, and selling PAs has been an amazing experience.

At the same time, it's been fascinating to discover how much inertia there is in the SS space. I ask questions for a living and applying that background to amp design has taken us to many unexpected answers and solutions!
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Michael Aust

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Maybe folks here hoped 1K80's could be simply dropped in place of the 1K50's with a 
more hefty supply, but there will be tradeoffs to that !
@n2WQ ... A lot of great comments here
Mike
SSPA designer here at a big DOD company
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I didn't think so! But from what I gather, the 1K50 can be used as a drop in replacement for other devices such as the BLF188XR, with only minor adjustments for bias? I was told that SPE replaced their 1.2kw devices in the 1.3K-FA with 1K50H, because of parts shortage of the 1.2kw devices. 
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Varistor

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Michael, I have a few questions that I'd like to run by you. Any chance I can email you directly?
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Michael Aust

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Varistor,
wb6dji_dx@icloud(dot)com
Mike
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I have been learning so much about solid state PA design just from reading this stuff, and writings by others in various places. I am in the process of building my own (for VHF), and while I did learn "the basics" and have a MSEE, a lot of this is brand new to me. What is cool though is that I can apply my knowledge of software and systems to amp design and integration. Should be a fun ride. 

Thanks for the technical posts. They are very enlightening. 
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Chris DL5NAM

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... we will do also :-)
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I must say, you guys have a really nice piece of kit with the B26-PA.