How much Output Power out of Power Genius XL Amp with 110VAC versus 220VAC input

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How much Output Power out of Power Genius XL Amp with 110VAC versus 220VAC input 

73
Mike
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Michael Aust

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Posted 2 years ago

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Michael Coslo

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Usually the same, you just draw twice the current from the lines. So much better to put in the 240 volt line.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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Nope. It's limited to protect the power supply and your wiring. 
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Mark - N7MHB

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I think I read somewhere where if on 120 its only 1KW.  I haven't been able to find it again so I could be wrong
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Peter K1PGV, Elmer

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Thank you Ria, for the education on residential power systems. I *lived* in NYC and didn't know the info you provided about 3 phase systems in NYC. And I'm the kind of person who typically absorbs this type of trivia. Thank you!

Peter
K1PGV
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I lived in 3 boroughs - Manhattan, Queens and Brooklyn. Was never happier to get out, even if it was to NJ.

However I worked for a state Gov't contractor and we would install servers in datacenters across the city, hence why I know this stuff about power systems. 

Ria
(Edited)
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Milen KG2C

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So I guess it must look something like this, except I don't get all three w/o an expensive upgrade.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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That's correct. It's 120/208. Around here only commercial customers like fast food outlets, supermarkets and gas stations have it, as well as larger buildings like churches.
(Edited)
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k3Tim

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If one could get 208 3 phase the AC to DC conversion would be really smooth so the caps wouldn't have. Realizing this is a switching supply it would seem 3phase would make the supply happy. 
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Larry - W0NQW

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Along this same line, what type of 220V plug is used on the amp.  I am installing a new 220v line to get ready for the amp, but do not know what outlet to install.
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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It comes with bare leads. You choose the plug. I would recommend getting a NEMA 6-20R installed, which accepts either a 15 or 20 amp 240V straight blade plug. You can get a twist lock if you want as well but they're really unnecessary unless it's in a high foot traffic environment or an environment subject to shock and vibration.

Interestingly enough, I believe the amp comes with an IEC C20 type receptacle on the power supply chassis and you can get a molded cord set with an appropriate plug on the end. Digikey sells them. I have a few left over from old storage arrays with a 6-20 plug on the end.

Ria
(Edited)
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Mark - N7MHB

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there are a couple different types of 220 plugs.  get the specs for what comes with it.  Not sure if the spec sheet is that detailed yet.
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K2CB Eric Dobrowansky

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Or get one of these, so you can plug in two amps at once!

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20...
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K2CB Eric Dobrowansky

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Or get one of these, so you can plug in two amps at once!

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20...
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I was planning to get a 2nd circuit installed here so I could EME while working HF, lol.
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Ned K1NJ

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    As long as we're on the "power input" subject, what power input will the
antenna genius tuner require?

          Ned,  K1NJ


                    
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I believe it could be powered from the coax and by the Power Genius XL. But a lot of this is TBD. I would imagine that it would be the same as any tuner - 13.8V DC at a few amps.
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Varistor

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How much power the amp can deliver very much depends on the quality of the power supply. A friend and I are building a solid state amp based on a pair of 1K80 transistors. The optimum drain voltage turned out to be 65V so that we can optimize the output transformer using commercially available coax wire (e.g., 18 Ohm) and ferite toroids. In this configuration the amp delivers 2.7 KW before it goes into compression. No time limit...measured over decades, not hours.

So to achieve this level of performance we ended up buying a Chinese switching power supply that delivers 6000W over a very wide range of input voltage, including 110V. Don't think many commercial amp manufacturers go into this type of engineering.
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Varistor

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The short answer is that most likely not. Our goal is to transition my friend's existing line of GU74-based amps to solid state.

The long answer is that we are not doing anything super secret. It is basic application of Ohm's law, experience designing broadband matching networks, and baseline amp design experience.
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Michael Aust

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@n2wq

Yes, your right, simply paralleling of two 1K80's devices with package parasitics Cout on the Drain will cause the dip for the proper RLopt Load Line >15MHz.

Using a transformer removes this issue by looking at the One Port Large Signal model, helps in wider BW ( Fano's Limit )

The downside is that %PAE takes a hit with a transformer but the upside is 
better Bandwidth, so it's a tradeoff in SSPA design and as well as $$ cost.

The Optimum RLopt on the output for a Class AB amp is DCIV Delta Delta Vds/Delta Delta Ids and Cout, from there the package parasitics need to taken into account with
3D EM Solver like HFSS CAD Simulator unless you have actual Load Pull Data from a Load Pull Tuner.

Load Pull Systems to see the affects of Fundamental and Harmonic terminations
are important in the design approach for a more refined approach in SSPA
design

Harmonic terminations will affect %PAE and level of the Imd's ( 3rd, 5th, products's) as you reach P1dB and into saturation 

A bad RLopt, will cause the ellipse of the Load Line to shift (Circle across the DCIV plane**  ) due to Cdrain effects also to cause lower Pout, higher gate currents, etc.
( ** RF swing across the Delta Vds and Delta Ids swings from the ideal DCIV 
curves of ( Pulsed DCIV on device to prevent sag in DCIV curves and Non-Linear Model Characterization) the 1K80 device )).
(Edited)
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Peter K1PGV, Elmer

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>The long answer is that we are not
>doing anything super secret. It is basic
>application of Ohm's law, experience designing
>broadband matching networks, and baseline
>amp design experience.

LOL.  Yes, of course.  That's the definition of what's required to build any PA, really.  There's an awful lot that's contained in that "experience" thingy, though.

I was just thinking that the ham community could benefit from a fully-formed, well considered, reference design for such a cutting edge amp.

Peter
K1PGV
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Michael Aust

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PA design is more than Ohm's Law
LOL
Mike
PA designer
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Varistor

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Honestly, I am surprised that so much attention is being paid to power and SWR ratings than to T/R delay time, especially in SO2R mode. The issue is that in SO2R mode you cannot select the proper band for the LPF prior to PTT from the radio (you don't know which radio will "ask" to TX).

So the issue becomes how quickly can the controller determine the proper LPF band selection. 6-10 ms for the relay. Maybe 10-20 ms for the controller? How about the broadcast packets? It quickly adds up.
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Varistor

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Prior to embarking on this journey I had zero amp knowledge despite my formal engineering degree. Working with someone who's been designing, building, and selling PAs has been an amazing experience.

At the same time, it's been fascinating to discover how much inertia there is in the SS space. I ask questions for a living and applying that background to amp design has taken us to many unexpected answers and solutions!
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Michael Aust

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Maybe folks here hoped 1K80's could be simply dropped in place of the 1K50's with a 
more hefty supply, but there will be tradeoffs to that !
@n2WQ ... A lot of great comments here
Mike
SSPA designer here at a big DOD company
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I didn't think so! But from what I gather, the 1K50 can be used as a drop in replacement for other devices such as the BLF188XR, with only minor adjustments for bias? I was told that SPE replaced their 1.2kw devices in the 1.3K-FA with 1K50H, because of parts shortage of the 1.2kw devices. 
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Varistor

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Michael, I have a few questions that I'd like to run by you. Any chance I can email you directly?
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Michael Aust

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Varistor,
wb6dji_dx@icloud(dot)com
Mike
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I have been learning so much about solid state PA design just from reading this stuff, and writings by others in various places. I am in the process of building my own (for VHF), and while I did learn "the basics" and have a MSEE, a lot of this is brand new to me. What is cool though is that I can apply my knowledge of software and systems to amp design and integration. Should be a fun ride. 

Thanks for the technical posts. They are very enlightening. 
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Chris DL5NAM

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... we will do also :-)
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Ria - N2RJ, Elmer

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I must say, you guys have a really nice piece of kit with the B26-PA.