see if both of your heatsinks are in place and have not fallen off. Here are some photos to look at.
.
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Posted 9 months ago
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I would think the cooling would be improved.
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backside heatsink to really see if PEN heatsink thru the PCB high
thermal resistance is really effective
Hope the MTBF is not affected, in Semi-World Reliability Talk, every 10deg C
rise above SOA temp can cut MTBF hours in half in GaAs & GaN, not sure
what it is in Silicon.
A big concern is that the BGA for the A/D chips is subjected to more Temperature swings between on & off cycles to be a reliability MTBF issue if Temp is not carefully controlled within the SOA specifications of the A/D
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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When they are used in a Flex radio, they are used in a very sensitive application.
The only reason Flex uses heat sinks is for the needs of the radio. It must stay under a certain temp to allow the best performance of the radio. any cooler temp other than the target running temp has little to no benefit. So it has been determined that the corrective action allows for much more cooling then needed.
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Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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As many of you have read, Heat Sink are falling off on the new Icom IC-7610 radio... Lets see how Icom responds to this.. They are just now beginning to gather serial numbers of the affected radios,, However only those who read the blog will even know about it,, I am sure their are hundreds if not thousands world wide who have no idea what is going on..
Flex notified all its customers , all of them and that is what first class customer service is.. My experience with Yaesu, Icom and Kenwood, is they do not do recalls or send out TSP by email.. If someone reports an issue, and it is under warranty, they just respond by telling the customer to send it to the repair center... But it is the Customer, not ICOM who must be proactive!
Robert
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Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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We emailed everyone to whom we shipped radios before April 12 so if they did not receive the email it is probably in their spam folder. I can assure you that our intent was to notify everyone.
Gerald
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Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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Can
the heatsinks cause a short if they land on the circuit board below while the power is on?
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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Gerald, I want to
thank for being so honest with us on this small problem. I can’t
begin to tell you how much
it means to me that you have been honest with your customers on this
issue many other manufactures would have tried to cover something
like this up. To me this says a lot on how you stand behind your
product.
BTW when I looked
inside my radio to see if my heatsinks fell off, they were still on.
But what I did notice is the quality of circuit boards that are used
in the radio are Top Notch, Heavy gauge and lots of ground plane. I
also noticed the quality of the case itself, well designed with good
airflow.
Again thank you
John
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If nothing rattles, then while shaking the rig, slam it hard into a solid object, like your desktop, until something does rattle, then immediately submit a help desk ticket reporting what you did, and then wait for the reply you will probably get, informing you about the premature expiration of your repair warranty.
or ...
If instead, you hear no rattling, and don't see any signs of any other hardware malfunctions, be Happy!!

You can skip the help desk ticket submission, like usual.
And in the future try to avoid fantasizing about problems your not actually experiencing.
Enjoying your Flexradio, might be easier than you think it is.
73, Jay - NO5J
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An acceptable level is a level where, when at the top of the specified outside operating temperature, at end of life, the A/D performance does not degrade the sensitivity. Right now I am looking at both antenna ports (Ant 1 & Ant 2) of my 6600M and there is a 35dB difference in the noise in a 500Hz bandwidth measured with the S meter dBm level, with no antenna connected! The heat sink on antenna 1 has fallen off and the A/D has degraded the performance by 35dB! Has the chip been damaged by the temperature rise. It must be to have degraded the performance by 35 dB!
If you have a noise floor problem check one antenna input against the other. If there is a difference it is the heat sink!!!! Even if the heat sink has not fallen off it may be loose and you will see a difference in noise floors. Comment on this post with your findings. It will be interesting what the differences between the two antenna ports are.
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Only that these chips are used in the Flex in a very sensitive place they need to run at a target temp in order to perform at their best when used in the radio for this application.
If the correct epoxy was used from the start none of this conversation would have happened.
Because it has happened, some are suggesting that Flex engineers do not know what they are doing.
The mounting of these chips are a common practice in the electronics industry more and more.
In the way Flex has decided to mount the the new heat sinks on the back is perfectly fine. The cooling is not dependent on holes on the board. The heat from the chip is picked up from the pin connections on the back of the chip.
These chips do not get very warm, It does not take very much to cool them.
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Those rigs that have not been affected yet should be fine by just having the modification kits done. Im so glad I checked mine and found it attached still and used a wire tie to securely hold it in place.
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But in the case of how Flex uses them they have to be kept at a target temp in order to perform as Flex needs them to.
The ADC circuit is very temp sensitive in the Flex.
Gerald mention the other day that the lack of a heat sink will not damage the chip.
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Most of what I said are also things mentioned from Flex, read carefully.
Gerald said, these chips get warm, but will never damage without a heat sink.
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Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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This is mostly used on applications were temp is important and the source gets warm and never hot.
As mentioned before these chips are not hot, so this form of cooling works well.
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Here is a snippet from the video you published. Show me the thermal pads and via holes as recommended by the chip manufacturer.

I do not see any. The thermal impedance must be really bad! Combine that with the heat sink stuck between the PCB and a metal partition and the thermal issue is still a concern.
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Are you a thermal engineer? I am not. I did work on satellite hardware at component level, unit level and I oversaw the design of satellite payloads. I also worked on ground based rack mounted comm hardware and hardware that had to survive Aircraft Uninhabited Fighter (AUF) specifications plus I worked on rack mounted satellite special test equipment. I have a healthy respect for thermal design. In all the designs, if the junction temperature of a device exceeds the specified limit, the MTBF of the device is severely degraded. The reliability goes to pot! No telling what happens to the device. The manufacturer specifies a certain temperature range and they do not usually indicate what happens when that range is exceeded. They do not want you to go there!
I think publishing the thermal imaging data will help. But that is the case temperature and there thermal impedance from the case to the junctions hence the junction temperatures will be proportionally higher! A full thermal analysis is required not just tongue in cheek comments.
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http://www.analog.com/media/en/techni...
I think the pads in question are meant to be under the chip on the top side of the board. That's where the chip has an exposed metal 'paddle' to facilitate heat dissipation - in which case you may not see them.
IMHO however, without the specified via holes to conduct heat through the board, I'd suggest that the heatsink on the back of the board might not be as effective as hoped.
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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Gerald
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Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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FYI, the vias are 8 mil diameter and are all covered by solder mask on the bottom of the board so they are hard to see. They are bare copper on the chip side of the board.
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Gerald- K5SDR said in reference to putting the new heat sink on the back of the board:
The back of the board is a much better thermal sink that the chip top, which is plastic. The chip is designed to sink through a thermal pad to the ground plane under the part. The bottom of the board is solid ground plane. We measure the results with an infrared thermal camera.
If that is the case then why was it designed with the heat sink on top of the chip in the first place and did the original design result in overheating the components by not providing enough protection?
Also wayne suite brought up a good point:
Bill if the heatsinks for the chips are left off for so many other applications I dont understand why they are so necessary and if they are so necesary then its more than prudent to say the chips when heated must have been affected or damaged if the symptoms we are seeing cause the radio to go deaf. Its kinda like overheating your engine and causing the block to crack after it cools down the engine will still run buts its no longer reliable with the white smoke coming out. Of course the adcs dont have smoke coming out but there is no way to determine the internal damage thats been done to the adc by being overheated.
If the heat sinks are required to avoid damage how can anyone be certain that their radios did not suffer some amount of damage while the heat sink was detached? Many owners say they keep their radios powered up 24/7 so shouldn't they be concerned about possible damage that may have occurred? How long can a radio be powered up safely with the heat sink detached?
Would it be prudent for Flex to replace the boards to ensure that no future problems develop due to any overheating experienced while the heat sink was detached?What is the cost of replacing one of those boards ?
If I owned one of the affected radios I would certainly be requesting new boards.
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Cal/N3CAL
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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The sky is not
falling and it’s not the end of the world. It’s a small problem
and so far FRS has addressed it so let’s all take a deep breath and
relax it’s technology and humans are not perfect. There are recalls
and engineering updates all the time by companies at least in this
case it’s not a gas pedal getting stuck or an airbag blowing up in
your face.
I am no design engineer but if the new heatsink works well then there is nothing to worry about. From what I can figure the only time the ADC chip temp has the potential to rise out of the safe zone is when the user has the Preamp enabled in SmartSDR (+8, +16, +24 +32dB) because it pushes the chip a bit harder.
As for me I think I
will install the new PEN heatsink on the back of the board and clean
and re attach the original heatsink to the chip top again using
quality thermal adhesive. Then it will be even better cooling. 2
heatsinks are better than 1!
I think a solution
that most of could live with is after we all have the PEN update done
if within in 2-3 years we start to see numbers of ADC boards failing
that FRS will offer free replacement boards.
I’m just glad that
FRS did not try to cover this issue up it says a lot about how honest
flex is with there customers. Not many companies today are as
forthcoming.
Anyone remember the FT-2000 preamp problem, Yaesu still won't admit there was a problem after all these years.
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Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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Please let me clear up some of the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). I designed this part of the radio so you are getting it right from the horses mouth. That means you can blame it directly on me. I apologize for any inconvenience you may experience while we do the heat sink replacement.
Here are the facts regarding the ADC heat sinks:
- The AD9467 ADCs do not require heat sinks to safely operate. We have been using these parts first in government and later in ham applications for 10 years and have never used a heat sink on the parts until the new radios. That means there are no heat sinks on the 6300/6500/6700 ADCs and they have been in continuous operation since 2013.
- The AD9467 has a maximum junction temperature rating of 150 Centigrade (302F). It is rated to operate in an ambient temperature of 85 Centigrade (185F). There is NO risk of damage to the part in your radio with no heat sink. The PCB is designed to sink the heat into two layers of ground plane through 36 ground vias on the chip's ground pads. This will keep the chip perfectly safe without an external heat sink. We will not replace the boards because there is no sound technical case to do so.
- The heat sinks were added to increase to increase spurious free dynamic range by a few dB and to hold the clock alignment within a tighter range.
- Each time you boot the radio, it does an automatic synchronization of the ADC clock with the FPGA to find the optimal timing. If the heat sink falls off, the timing of the clock changes and it may lose sync. This causes the noise floor of the receiver to go up dramatically or you can lose receive all together. Since the entire system is clocked through the first ADC, it can affect transmit as well.
- Simply replacing the heat sink with a tie rap to hold it in place as others have shown here will get you right back in operation if you have not yet received the replacement heat sink kit.
- The copper heat sinks we used were selected because they are copper, cost effective, easy to get in volume, and fit the part well. They were marketed to be used on the Raspberry Pi chip. Unfortunately, the quality of the thermal adhesive was not what we expected.
- The adhesive problem did not show up on our prototypes or on our our alpha/beta test team until three months after being placed in operation.
- The thermal adhesive on the new heat sinks are rated to require 36 pounds of force at 100C (212F) to remove them after they are properly applied.
- The radios are rated for an ambient temperature in operation of 50C (122F) so I doubt any of you have gotten near the maximum ambient operating temperature of the chip of 85C (185F). If you have, you are a lot tougher than me. ;>)
- Why didn't I use the heat sink on the bottom to begin with? Of the thousands of design decisions you get to make in designing a radio, I just didn't think of it. I had no idea that the adhesive would fail on the one I chose and it was fine thermally to meet the requirement. I learn something new with each new design.
- We have mailed kits to everyone who requested it when we communicated the PEN announcement. Please complete the survey in the notification if you have not already to receive your kit.
Sincerely,
Gerald
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From your explanation my only question since you had indicated you was the designer is this: The 6600 then has 2 fpga and adc chips while the 6400 has 1 fpga and agc chip supporting the different speeds listed in the brochure, correct?
Something else I wondered for a while where does one go to learn how to program the complex fpga's is it a factory only school or are courses available in colleges.
Thanks so much Gerald for clearing all of this up once and for all.
Kd5spx in Texas.
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As a side note, over on the ICOM IC-7610 group as they figure out what to do with heat-sinks falling off, ICOM has already threatened that if you re-attach the heat sink it will VOID your warranty... Flex steps up and fixes the problem, ICOM Threatens its customers!! Glad I decided back in December to cancel my IC-7610 order with HRO and go with FLEX!!!!
Robert In San Diego
KY6LA - Howard, Elmer
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http://radioamateur.forumsactifs.com/t2137-icom-ic7610-radiateur-dissipateur-de-chaleur-interne-deco...
Glad I got the Flex6600M instead
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Going back to Collins Radios of past,, the engineers at Collins did more then carefully select the TUBES that would go into the radio,,, but also what they did with everything from the Tube Bias, Plate Voltage and even down to Filament voltage.. Most filament voltage is 6.3 volts,, but Collins ran many at 6.1 volts to add in reliability.. That in turn required the Bias and plate voltages to be tweaked to assure they met their design specification.. Sometimes it is a simple thing that can increase performance, and how much of a compromise a design team takes, can be the night and day difference... Sort of the Monitor DVI output and a somewhat low resolution taken by others, ,VS the HDMI Full HD output Flex chose to do...
I think a lot of Hams think that if something is SDR, then it is all a level playing field and all performance is created equal,, so that means that a $200 radio like the SDRplay will outperform every other radio... Not that the SDR Play isn't a fun device that gives you exposure to a wide band of frequencies as a receive only device,, but it is no better then the FREE software packages that are available, some with support, most with little or no support..
When ICOM sent out an update for my IC-R8600 radio to allow it to be used with the HDSDR software,, I was able to use my RC-28 external tuning know.. However ever since the latest Windows update, the software no longer works with the radio! So we have been told that ICOM and HDSDR are working on a drivers fix!!! I am not holding my breath for a fast resolution,, After all HDSDR is a FREE software package, so where is the incentive to fix anything? I assume that the fix will be available eventually,, Since ICOM claims they support this package for its radio.. It was nice that Flex had the problem identified and a fix within DAYS of the issue coming up... Again, you get what you pay for...
Robert
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How sensitive is the clock sync to temperature? Will this become a problem a few years down the road when the thermal efficiency of the heat sink degrades?
Again, if it is clock synchronization, I saw a 35 dB increase in noise floor. How much temperature increase would cause a 10 dB increase?
The ambient temperature is also a factor. If the radio is calibrated at an ambient temperature of 70 F how will it perform at the top and bottom of the specified ambient range?
Is the clock sensitivity to temperature an issue?
How big is the chip temperature rise with the heat sink attached versus no heat sink?
For it not to be an issue the temperature rise has to be pretty large and if that is the case then the device is possibly operating at a much higher temperature with no heat sink. If the temperature rise not large then the clock sync thermal sensitivity is pretty high.
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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You have no reason to be concerned about the clock alignment with the new heat sink installed or even the original one. All FLEX-6000s use this same automated clock alignment system since 2013. Until now, none of them use an external heat sink - only a larger PCB ground plane. With the new heat sink, they operate cooler than on the older radios. The thermal adhesive is specifically rated to at 36 pounds of pressure at 100C!!!! It will be extremely hard to remove once it is fully set.
By the way, the problem with the old heat sink was thermal adhesive quality from the original manufacturer. The new heat sink is specifically rated for the application.
Gerald
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PS. I have a 6300 and a 6500 and both had problems with heatsinks falling off. The danger of one falling off should be enough not to use this methodology again. This lesson was obviously not learnt in the rush to secure more software development funding. When did you last go portable with a 56” plasma screen?
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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There is no harm but not a lot of benefit to adding heat sinks to the ADC on the 6500 because it is on an eight layer 10" x 10" PCB with four ground planes. The 6400 and 6600 use small plug in PCBs with two ground planes so we added the heat sink on those models.
Gerald
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Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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Let me try this once more. The ADCs on the 6300/6500/6600 are on large PCBs with four ground plane layers and vias from the ADCs. The 6400/6600 use a new modular design on 1 inch x 1.5 inch 4 layer PCBs with two ground planes. We added the heat sink to make up for the smaller ground plane area on the PCB. We went to the modular design for both manufacturing and service reasons. The original heat sinks were defective from the heat sink manufacturer so they fell of. The replacement heat sinks are rated at 36 pounds at 100C. Once they set they are very hard to get off.
We have many many thousands of these exact ADCs and FPGAs operating in the field with exactly the same clock synchronization without issue. With the new heat sinks the thermal profile is in the correct range and the specs for adhesion are appropriate.
Gerald
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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As stated several times here on the Community, everything shipped on or after April 12, 2018 have all of the performance upgrades.
Gerald
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If it isn’t to do with interface timings, why does it degrade receiver performance when the heatsink falls off?
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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Bottom line. With the new heat sinks installed it is a non-issue.
Gerald
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I probably don’t have to understand, but I am a potential customer for the 6600 and at the moment I am concerned with design quality. My understanding so far is that the new small board doesn’t dissipate heat as well as older larger board. As a symptom of this, the interface timing between the ADC and FPGA is affected on the new smaller board over its operational temperature range. The solution is then to add a heatsink to the ADC on new smaller board to better match the old boards PCB stack up thermal profile?
Gerald - K5SDR, Employee
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Yes, the heat sink on the smaller board replaces the larger PCB from a thermal standpoint. We measured and compared the different design approaches with a Fluke Thermal Imaging camera. The measurements show that it meets our thermal and mechanical design criteria. We could actually change the FPGA code for a wider tolerance range but believe it or not it is less costly to change the heat sinks. ;>)
Gerald
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What I learned in doing this PEN.
1. Follow the procedure. By this I mean remove the cover while the radio is powered up. This will allow you to get to the removal of the heat sinks while the glue is still warm that may make the removal a little easier.
2. Note that the vents on the lid are toward the front of the radio. it will make the re-installation of the cover easier so you don't put it on backwards.
3. My heat sinks were still glued but had moved down and rotated a little. I had the radio on for 24/7 since February. I had to pull on the heat sinks pretty hard to get them to come off. I wiggled them a little but may not be a good idea as the old heat sink may cause a problem with L2 and L3 inductor chips right next to the heat sink.
4. I would recommend before you start the Installation that you listen to a couple bands to see signal strengths and noise levels so that when you finish you can listen again as a radio check. I also check one Antenna then switch the antenna to the other port to make sure they were working the same. The band was poor when i did the heat sink installation so I was concerned at first when I put the radio back in service.
5. The installation of the heat sinks is straight forward but if you are a not a handy person you may want to have someone help. It would beat shipping back to Flex for a repair. Study the two cautions and know what parts they are talking about to watch not to damage.
6. The glue on the new heat sinks is good. I mean make sure you have it aligned before putting it down on the board, you get one chance to apply. It wont move. It was a surprise that the new heat sink mount on the non component side of the board so I had to read the instructions a number of times. Study the instructions before you start.
73
Bill
W9JJB
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
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If you are concerned about damaging the board or accidentally scraping pff components on the ADC board and you do not want to send your radio into Service to have it installed, you are not required to remove the existing heatsinks. Just apply the new heatsinks to the back of the board and take a very small plastic tie wrap or something else non-metallic like twine and install it around the board to hold the copper heatsink in place to prevent it from ever falling off. It does not need to be tightened very much to hold it place.
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Steve K9ZW, Elmer
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David Decoons wo2x, Elmer
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Dave wo2x
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
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Michael Walker, Employee
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Mike
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
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If the thermal issue with the ADC was not resolved by the upgraded heatsink, changing the FPGA code would not have fixed the dynamic range problem, it would have masked it. That is why there is a wink emoji after his comment.
The new heatsink provides more thermal mass and more efficient thermal transfer than the previous components. And yes, we have tested it and it meets our specs.
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
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The whole story? Maybe.
While the problem is clearly an annoyance, I really think you're being overly hard on yourself here.
I've been an ME in electro-mechanics for decades, electronics, optics, mechanisms, motion control, the whole ball of wax - and it looks to me like the design side, at the time, had it basically covered. Could it possibly have been the "hand-off" to manufacturing engineering / manufacturing?
I've worked with these "PSA heatsinks" and what killed us was a lack of process control - making sure the mating surfaces were clean, consistent quality of the PSA, keeping the PSA itself clean and uncontaminated prior to installation, and of course environmental controls during assembly (humidity very bad....). The heat characteristics and tensile strength of the bond is pretty cut and dry. The process - maybe not so much.
Glad to hear it's been resolved - personally I love the PSA heatsinks. We use them sucessfully in many instruments, stationary and handheld. Maybe you have to come from the ole' EccoBond thermal epoxy days to really appreciate them.
73 Jim, WQ2H
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