- 56 Posts
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Posted 5 years ago
Stu Phillips - K6TU, Elmer
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With a bridged VPN, it works fine assuming you have adequate bandwidth.
Stu K6TU
- 56 Posts
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the big problem is DAX !
It requires up to 250 KB when ON (for remote listen)
Normallly with two slices open the BW is close to 100 KB at any SPAN, using a confortable 15 FPS.
73 Beppe
ik3vig
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
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George Molnar, KF2T, Elmer
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George Molnar, KF2T, Elmer
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Steve - N5AC, VP Engineering / CTO
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Also, I want to point out there are a couple of WAN timing issues that must be dealt with also (for full remote operation). There is jitter and latency. Today DAX requires fairly consistent packet rates that you will get on a LAN. That is the packets are evenly spaced. If the traffic becomes bursty, this results in jitter when you receive packets. The standard mechanism for combatting this is to buffer. This is one of the reasons why YouTube buffers for a while before showing you the video you want to see: it gets enough material locally so that when t starts playing it can grab a frame at the rate that it wants while the network side is stuffing in packets at an odd pace... first 10 then none then 5 then 15, etc.
By inserting a buffer, though, you add a lot of latency. For listening, this is fine. If you are just listening you really don't care that the program material is delayed by 100ms or a full second or more. But if you are trying to respond to the other end (transmit) then you want as low latency as you can get. Optimizing the network traffic, latency and jitter is the bulk of the work that must be done for full remote operation.
So we know that folks will play with VPNs in the mean time and we are interested in the results you achieve. But we know that in most cases these kinds of issues will prevent most operation from succeeding for the time being. The FLEX-6000 is designed with remote in mind and SmartSDR is optimized for remote operation. I know you guys are about to die waiting on it and so are we!
- 3 Posts
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I should have been clearer in my advocacy for the ILBC coded. I am hoping for the inclusion of several codecs, selectable by the user on the fly.
I have found that environment is a big factor in my choice of codec. One for an LTE link, a different one for DSL and still another for 2G.
Often low latency is the dominate factor in choosing a codec but I will trade low latency and a bit of voice quality to be able to use my remote station via a 2G data link versus sitting around the camp site doing nothing but reading QST for the third time.
Thanks, Bob, W7KWS
Steve - N5AC, VP Engineering / CTO
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We will be doing testing with varying latency, dropout, packet shuffling configurations in the lab using a network mangler and then later over real links that have substandard performance so we will definitely be testing in the types of environments you are concerned about.
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Steve,
I retired from engineering in 1998 so my academic experience is way behind the curve. The bulk of my data experience came in the late 1970s working on cellular development with Bell Labs. Even at that we weren't concerned with voice coding just command & control over a multipath channel with 30 dB fades, often below the noise level.
Your endeavor is probably much more difficult than mine was as you ultimately will want to please my goals of low bit rate remote control and some other customers desire to listen to music remotely from an HF broadcaster.
My suggestion is to proceed with a good choice or two but allow your customers to plug in other, optional codecs that suit their needs.
I did a quick Internet search and there are many articles on the subject. More than I can study and make an informed suggestion. I have included a link below to one article that discusses some of the issues within the context of the AMR codec group which I believe that AT&T has standardized on for their mobile codec. Of course, landline Internet is less rigorous than are mobile data links.
My recent experience is empirical doing amateur radio using several media over the last few years. Some links were slow some choppy others exhibited both and were useless. Other links are perfect. I've paid for some codecs and found others installed in various VOIP soft phones or hardware. I've found some are great in one context and then useless in another. This must be why most of the SIP VOIP implementations offer a large user selection of codecs. This way they can ultimately please the largest number of customers.
Sincerely,
Bob, W7KWS
http://telcodocs.p1sec.com/3GPP%20Rel-10/3G%20and%20beyond%20:%20GSM%20(R99%20and%20later)/22_series...
- 217 Posts
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Steve,
My experience with high latency for Rx only introduces another issue. That is when tuning across the band all audio and video has a delay on it and it makes it difficult to zero in on a signal. I have gotten better at it by adopting the technique of small incremental VFO adjustment and then pausing. My experiences have been with the Icom BS-BA1 software and my IC-7850. The BS-BAI software has a "recommended" setting for the buffer size which works very nicely or you can adjust it manually. The IC-7850 has a built in server so a PC isn't required. I use it extensively on my travels.
I can't wait to try it with my Maestro/6700 when the software is ready!
By the way, nice presentation @ Sea-Pac- I really enjoyed it!
Jim
ka7gzr
George Molnar, KF2T, Elmer
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Peter K1PGV, Elmer
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What would be nice is to be able to put one slice on the left channel and another slice on the right channel... But that's not really THAT much of an advantage over just running two instances of the digimode program.
Peter
K1PGV
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Bjorn
LB5TG
George Molnar, KF2T, Elmer
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- 257 Posts
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It seems to me the solution is a simple one - no need to vote. DAX defaults to maximum fidelity, then automatically downshifts the bitrate to the capability of the link. This would be good enough, but to be perfect, it would also shift back up based on a longer time constant.
A nice feature would be to add a meter showing the current state of the DAX connection.
- 1621 Posts
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Maybe it could be possible to have both DAX and DXAX.
DXAX could use whatever codec wins the, (optimal for streaming low latency audio) over a bog standard internet connection race.
Think bigger it's only software!
Just design DXAX with the capability of switching out the codec, should something superior come along. DXAX might even make a good 3rd party/home brew/science project.
Think about it, then make it happen!
73, Jay - NO5J
- 193 Posts
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Well, it seems harder than it first looked:
My Panasonic IP telephone supplier and my Cincinnati Bell Fioptics internet provider, after much backing and forthing, settled on a Draytek Vigor3900 router to make my gigabit internet and VOIP SIP trunks work together correctly. I am therefore permanently attached to this "Multi-WAN Security Appliance" and need to see what I can do with it for Flex-6XXX remote VPN service.
I tried a very nice free Draytek iOS app called "Smart VPN" on my iPhone 6 and my iPad Pro. I set up the Vigor3900 per the FAQ http://www.draytek.com/en/faq/faq-vpn/vpn.ssl-vpn/how-to-use-smartvpn-ios-app-and-establish-ssl-vpn-to-vigor3900/ to use the SmartVPN app and it constructed a nice SSL VPN that works just fine to get inside my LAN. I can get the right answer to "What's My IP" when connected through the VPN (I have a fixed IP at home) and also administer the Draytek using its 192.168.xxx.xxx LAN-side address. I'm definitely connected to my LAN.
But, it doesn't play nice with finding radios with which to connect K6TU's Remote
The problem, of course, is that I am a complete VPN newbie and can't figure out how to configure the VPN connection for bridge mode or its functional equivalent. I've perused the User's Guide http://www.draytek.com.tw/ftp/Vigor3900/Manual/DrayTek_UG_Vigor3900_V2.1.pdf and looked at every thread on this site that mentions VPN without finding anything promising.
Would someone of you knowledgable IT guys like to coach me through to a VPN solution?
For fun or profit, ... your choice.
Mike - W8MM
- 193 Posts
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Thanks so much for the insight on what Apple allows for bridged support. Sounds like L2TP is a must have for what I want to do. I was originally going to configure Soft Ether for L2TP/IPSEC, but I couldn't figure out the setup with my router.
In the threads and videos talking about Soft Ether VPN configuration, it mentions "opening" port 5555. The Draytek has "port redirection", is that usable?
Here's the firmware/documentation page with the Manual (V2.1) link: http://www.draytek.com/en/download/firmware/vigor3900/
I have no resistance to a best-practice solution (like Soft Ether),if I can figure out how to provision it!
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One more question: Since I could only find "bridge mode" as "bridge VLAN" options, would that work, or do I need to get Soft Ether going, instead?
Stu Phillips - K6TU, Elmer
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Sorry.
Stu
Stu Phillips - K6TU, Elmer
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The box does support port forwarding - look under the NAT section where it says port redirect.
The simplest solution would be to port forward the required ports to a computer on the same subnet as the radio and run Soft Ether VPN Server on that.
Stu K6TU
- 193 Posts
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Perfect! I can do that. Thanks so much for your help!
Steve K9ZW, Elmer
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Chris K6OZY is the VPN go-to Elmer and has done a series of video tutorials:
73
Steve K9ZW
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I've already watched them to no avail.
I thought about using SoftEther on a radio-close PC, but couldn't figure out how to "open port 5555" on my particular router.
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Mike, I am using the built in VPN on my ASUS routers at the remote and here at Home. Nothing else to do radio works fine. I do need to use CWX for cw and my digital mode (RTTY) works fine. Not an SSB op so have not tried that mode . Was waiting for Maestro for that.
I use about 9 Meg up with everything opened up at the remote end and of course see the same 9Meg down here at the Control end so until WAN is implemented by Flex you do need good Bandwidth. I can throttle back the Waterfall and get away with around 3 M uplink for the radio at the Remote end but I would think that would be minimum.
I am fortunate to have FTTH on both ends of my VPN link.
Regards
Larry k1UO
- 193 Posts
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Thanks for the info. I also have FTTH at my QTH as well as the office. 300 mbps uplink should pose no problem ;~)
- 822 Posts
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Didn't need to do port forwarding or anything else.. Just needed to set up one of my Ethernet controlled relays on the Microbit Webswitch 1216H to the remote plug on the 6700 to turn it on/off remotely. The SPE2K amplifier is monitored over the Moxa 5210 serial server right here at the control end. The amp is wired to come on when the 6700 comes on and the antennas follow the 6700 via the new 4O3A antenna Genius switch.
Regards
Larry k1UO
- 95 Posts
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You just install the free OpenVPN Client on MAC or Windows and you plug in the configuration
file generated by the R7000 and that's it.
I worked my 6500 over VPN from Europe
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Roger
AD5T
David Decoons wo2x, Elmer
- 1233 Posts
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Don,
I remember seeing this issue (no waterfall) when using the SmartSDR for IOS app through a VPN. The solution was to make sure the local LAN and remote LAN were different IP schemes. 192.168.100.x for local radio side LAN and 192.168.200.x for remote LAN.
Not sure if that is your issue but maybe worth a look.
Dave wo2x
- 14 Posts
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You may be doing a different sort of remote operation if you need Windows Remote, Skype, or some other way to transport audio.
Here are the basic steps I use to operate phone and CW (via CWX) remotely:
1. I power up the remote location Flex using a DLI Ethernet Power Controller that enables a combination of direct ac switching for the station power supply and surplus wall warts and other power supplies plus relays to switch on my tuner and connect various antennas. This is done with a browser tab connected to the DLI web interface.
2. I then start the OpenVPN connection from my laptop client to the VPN server at the radio location. You can use ipconfig to verify the IP address assigned to your client computer, which is the laptop in my case.
3. I start SmartSDR on my client laptop. Default audio devices (not DAX devices) need to be set before starting the SmartSDR. Changing audio default devices after SmartSDR is running on the client usually requires a restart of SmartSDR.
4. The input audio source needs to be set in the P/CW panel pulldown to PC. Mouse over this pulldown to show which audio device is set.
5. Remote should be blue in the upper right of the SmartSDR screen and a mouse over of this button shows the receive audio device.
6. I use the tune button to drive an automatic antenna tuner at the radio's location and the MOX button for T/R switching.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Roger
AD5T
- 193 Posts
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As soon as I have all the bits and pieces playing nice with each other, I will post an exposé revealing all cool things I have discovered.
Again, many, many thanks to Stu & Chris!!!!!
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K9SO
3 yellow bars and a 70mS ping working well, even on CW between Chicago and Charlotte.
We're going to try and install a simple Linux plug on each end (~$14) to do this without a computer running other than the host.
I wonder if anyone else has used this approach?
Fred, K9SO