Eq adjustment with 1.4

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I run a heil PR 40 and I am getting good reports with version 1.4 but I cannot add more low end to the audio chain. Normally if you turn the eq off the mic by itself will have a lot of low end. I also run a tube preamp for the mic and it gave a warm effect which is missing now. Moving the settings on the eq makes almost no difference and yes the on tx is being turned on and off. I have not done a clean wipe and a new load but wanted to see if anyone else has had issues.
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Dale KB5VE

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Posted 5 years ago

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John n0snx

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Dave have you did a cold boot on the radio?  If not, turn the radio off and remove the power cable for a few minutes and then and see if it helps...
(Edited)
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Ross W8TZ

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I have noticed something similar. When listening to my TX audio with headphones and MON on, adjusting the equalizer sliders makes very little difference in the sound of my audio. If I monitor my transmitted audio on another receiver the equalizer is working correctly. I also noticed that when listening to myself on another receiver there is a slight delay. I am pretty sure 1.3.8 did not have any delay, at least nothing that you could actually notice. BTW, my Flex 6300 is started from cold boot every time. I always shut down the radio then turn off the power supply.

(Edited)
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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The MON is tapped off of the audio chain before the EQ, filtering and PROC to minimize latency (delay) between when you speak it and when you hear it.  We are working on some features that will allow you to better characterize your TX audio without having to listen to it in a separate receiver while transmitting.
(Edited)
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John n0snx

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If I am reading this correct... Then I can assume that any external EQing being done OUTSIDE of the radio should be heard thru the monitor.  Am I correct ???
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Yes, any changes to the source material should be heard through the monitor.
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John n0snx

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OK Tim Thanks


That helps a lot knowing that...
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Ken - NM9P

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On my 6500 I have received observations from my 80 meter rag chew bunch that 1.4 EQ is smoother in the high frequencies, but that I lost much of my low end. (Or perhaps it is that the high end was raised significantly?). Readjustment of the TX EQ brought it back up.


As always before upgrading, I did a power off cold reboot, then rebooted the rig, installed the new software, and did a cold reboot, persistence reset,, and reload of profiles.


After the reports I did another reboot and persistence reset and reload of profiles. The results were the same.


The question is: was the EQ in 1.38 wrong, I.e. Not flat to begin with? Did 1.4 correct this? Or did 1.4 adversely change the EQ pattern?


BTW, everyone agreed that it sounds superb, but I need to change all of my TX profiles in order to sound like I used to. Which I don't mind so much if this is the way it is intended to be. If 1.4 is an anomaly, I need to save my new profiles under a new name so I can recapture them if there is a point upgrade.
(Edited)
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Dale KB5VE

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Yes when we got 1.38 we lost the ability to listen to your audio as it sounded out of the radio , never understood why to be honest. I am going to do a factory reset and and a fresh reload just for the heck of it. It is a shame you cannot monitor the true out put audio. Also have you tried recording the audio on the the radio and replaying it, does it match the output audio on a second reciever?

One other thing that is happening, when I connect with the radio the transmit prophiles window will be blank and my transmit will be broad. I have to open it up and pick my setting?
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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"Yes when we got 1.38 we lost the ability to listen to your audio as it sounded out of the radio..."

That isn't the case.  See my comment above.

One other thing that is happening, when I connect with the radio the transmit profiles window will be blank and my transmit will be broad. I have to open it up and pick my setting?

Sounds like you need to do an export of your profiles without selecting the Preferences.  Do a cold boot of the radio and then do a Factory Reset on the power up after the cold boot.  Then Import your profiles back into the radio.  That should clear things up. 
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Dan -- KC4GO

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Ken did you see this Page 3 release notes
"EQ Modifications: The 8-band ISO 266 graphical equalizer has been modified for the 2 kHz, 4 kHz, and 6 kHz frequencies to increase the bandwidth around the center point frequency to ensure a smoother transition between these EQ bands."
Dan --- KC4GO
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Ed.G, Software Engineer

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The response in v1.3.8 and v1.4 is almost identical but there were some changes done to the EQ.

In versions prior to 1.4, each slider in the EQ had a fairly high Q which created a very 'peaky' effect that was very noticeable in the higher frequencies since they are farther apart. Part of the reason for this was that the EQ was processed in the Audio Codec vs the audio chains inside the main radio processor, so we had less control.

In v1.4 we moved the EQ into the Davinci/DSP so that we could have full control over how the processing was done. We changed the Q settings in the higher frequency sliders so that users wouldn't have valleys in their audio. As a consequence to this there is a more pronounced additive effect between the sliders. The levels bleed over more to their neighbors which means that instead of needing the first 3 sliders at +3,+3,+3 a setting of +1,+2,+1 might suffice. 

I believe this improves the performance of the EQ with the downside being that adjustments have to be made to previous settings.
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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The price of progress.  Sometimes a few settings have to change....  :-)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Ken it sounds to me they made the EQ flat, and it had a boost in the low end witch explains why most people had to set things to - side a lot.
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Ken - NM9P, Elmer

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Thanks Ed and Tim.  yes, it is the price of progress.
It's no biggie.  Once I adjusted it again, it seems to sound better than ever.
Especially it seems that the processor is even more effective, and seems to have stepped up a notch.  i.e. what used to be DX is now accomplished with NOR and so on.  and DX+ seems to have a bit more punch.  This is my observation anyway, after testing for about a hour with headphones connected to the 1500 and listening and recording myself.

I have a few more profiles to reprogram, now.  It won't take long now that I know about how much I need to shift them!

Thanks again for a great sounding and flexible rig.

Ken - NM9P
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Ken - NM9P, Elmer

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Here is my before and after Rag Chew Profile after the upgrade from V.1.38 to V.1.4.
It required readjusting the TX EQ.  (Which is actually a simpler profile, now.) 
That required dropping my mike gain from 37 to 35.
And the improved Processor required changing from DX to NORmal.

The bottom line is that it sounds better than ever for me.

My DX and DX NARROW profiles also required raising the lowest frequencies to flat as well.
But theDX+ PROC really gives some extra punch now.

RIG:  6500.  
Mike:  Heil PR22UT through Behringer Xenyx Q802USB Mixer then into the BAL input.
(The mixer is used only for preamp/distribution and the Mixer's EQ controls are flat, )

Before (V.1.38)


After: (V.1.4)
(Edited)
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Dale KB5VE

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Ok what is happening makes more sense. I do miss the warmth I got before but as you say change comes with change! Still think will do a complete reload then work on eq settings. I do hope you come up with a answer to monitoring the audio out to make it easier to set. Remember many hams do not have a second reciever.
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Jim - N7CXI

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I'm still having some trouble rebuilding my TX EQ curve to the same sound I had with 1.38 .
Ken's curve sounds high-pitched and peaky with my lashup - PR781, Mackie mixer with +4dBu output to ACC connector in the rear of the rig. (+4dBu is too hot, BTW - have to put the channel strip and main gain no higher than 50% to keep the gain distribution "sane")

73,
Jim N7CXI
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Ken - NM9P

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Which of my curves are you using?  My before or after?
If it is too sharp, reduce the 1K, 2K & 4K sliders a bit and you should get there, unless you are going for the "Big Bass" sound...  I need to have them higher because of the nature of my "radio voice."  Your voice may require additional settings to taste....And, yes, I needed to reduce gain a bit, also.  Adjust it with the PROC OFF so that it never goes into the "red" on excited voice peaks.  Then turn PROC on and leave the mike setting alone. If you used to run DX in your regular profile, you may need to drop it to NAR.  The processor seems to have been turned up a notch, which is nice for DX punch, but too much for regular ragchew audiophiles.

Good luck.  

Ken - NM9P
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Jim - N7CXI

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After working with it last night I ended up with something completely different. 
The 1.4 EQ (in firmware?) is different not only in the 1k+ bands but in the lower freqs as well. I had substantial cuts in the lower end in my 1.38 EQ, but had to actually add a little gain at 125 and 250 hz to get back to the same place.

No makee no sense here, but I will continue to grind away at it.
I may run white and pink noise tests as well if I have time and can locate all the hardware in the post-move disaster. I also have a client panting, so I may be working all weekend instead. :-(

Thanks,
Jim N7CXI
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Bill -VA3WTB

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They have made the Eq more dynamic and neutral. So increasing the lower end does begin at 0.
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Jim - N7CXI

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Bill - I suspected as much.
Thanks,
Jim N7CXI
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Dale KB5VE

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I set the first four flat then went up from there

Also be sure the low cut on transmit is at 100 then adjust up or down. You can type in the numbers to fine tune it
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Norm - W7CK

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PROBLEMS?

I'm using a PR-40 without a mic preamp.  In order to get enough gain I have to have the +20db turned on and the mic gain is at 100%.  I speak between 3-4 inches from the mic and it never gets into the red.  Below I've listed my EQ settings.  The 1st column is where I had it set initially.  Yesterday a couple folks helped me dial it in a little bit better and those settings are listed in the column labeled 2nd.  
 
EQ     1st     2nd
63       -10    -8
125     -10    -7
250     -10    -5
500     -4      -3
1k       +2     +2
2k       +9     +7
4k       +9     +8
8k       +10   +9

Once again, I have to have the mic gain maxed out along with the +20db.  I also switched between NOR, DX and DX+ during my testing with friends over the air.  DX was the preferred setting.  Still it never gets into the red.  While I hate the idea of having to add additional equipment I may have to resort to a mic preamp.  Since I run EVERYTHING except my KPA500 amp off of battery / solar power, I'd have to try to find a mic preamp that runs off of 12v dc.  Not very easy to do.
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Norm - W7CK

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More Info:  My PR-40 is hooked up via BAL on the back of the 6700.  Low Cut = 100, High Cut = 3200
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Ken - NM9P

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Your second set of EQ settings are about what I might expect with a PR-40. Except that the 8K would have no effect at all with the bandwidth you are running, except to add unneeded loading to the compressor. I have heard that, while they sound great, the PR-40's can have output a bit lower than some other mikes. I would love to have one, but cannot justify the added expense over my PR-22... Diminishing returns, etc.

If we run into each other on the air again, I would be glad to assist and offer my opinions, which are probably no more valid than anyone else's. SSB audio is very much a matter of personal opinion!

One place to "play" might be with listening carefully in another receiver with attenuation, and adjusting the 1k a bit until it fills in any larg dip you may have. Too much or too little at 500 and 1000 can make it sound bad either way.
(Edited)
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Jim - N7CXI

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Norm,
I've found that the PR-781 has fairly low output for a balanced pro-market mic - I wouldn't be surprised if the PR-40 was similar. I ended up inserting a $50 Mackie mixer between the mic and the radio and adding roughly 6dB of gain. Things like VOX and the speech processor seem to work better, at least IMHO. It also allows me to use the 1" condenser mics from my recording mic locker, since the little mixer has a switchable 48V phantom power injector.
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Sergey, R5AU

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May be a good solution implementing of the VST plug-ins like here: http://zs-1.ru/index.php/downloads/it...
Just an idea, due to the many standartized solutions already implemented in F6000 's
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Norm - W7CK

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Dale,

Would you mind posting ALL of your audio settings including low and high cut, dx dx+, eq etc.... ?
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Dale KB5VE

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My set up with a PR 40 is eq: 63,125,25,500 all flat 0. 1k +3, 2k +6, 4k +8, 8k +8

Processor dx but you can use what suits you.

Mic gain17 but remember I run a mic preamp

Low cut 50 to 100 depends on your voice high cut 2750 I have run 3000 but you are more likely to bother someone with it at 3000 and I believe the 2700 to 2750 is good.

I get good reports with it like this.
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Norm - If someone instructed you to open the TX bandwidth to greater than 2.9k, that information was not entirely accurate.  You can get outstanding sounding audio with a maximum TX high cut value of 2.9k.  Making the TX bandwidth wider will provide more high content fidelity, but this is ESSB and should not be used for making regular QSOs.

What is important is to have a decent mic that has a wide frequency response to reproduce your voice characteristics properly.

Then you use the EQ to match your voice characteristics with the microphone's response curve.  You want to do this with PROC and DEXP off.  And you really should listen to yourself with a 2nd receiver that has a wide RX filter (I use a FLEX-1500 for this purpose).

I just finished fine tuning my TX profiles I use with a PR40 and the TX bandwidth for my "normal" profile is 100-2900 Hz.  I got some very good reports from my over the air testing yesterday.
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Norm - W7CK

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Tim - would you mind posting all of your EQ settings for your PR40?

I'm assuming then that your low cut is 100 and high cut is 2900?

Do you use these setting without a mic preamp?
(Edited)
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Norm - I can post them, but they will not be good for you.  EQ settings are like mouthguards and dentures, they will only fit one person.

This is my PR40 normal EQ settings:
0, 0, -4, 2, 4, 5, 6, 6

My TX bandwidth is 100-2900

I use an external class AB tube type preamp, so I do not use the +20 dB boost (it isn't required) and because most of my input gain is coming from the external preamp, my mic gain setting is @ 10.

I use PROC @ the DX setting

And I use DEXP @ a threshold setting of 60
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Norm - W7CK

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Another quick question for you Tim.  Do you run FM and if so, do you have a whole different EQ for FM?  I saw someplace where someone turned off TX EQ,  COMP, DEXP when on FM.  Not sure what the standard operating procedure should be there.
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Dale KB5VE

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I agree with Tim I myself have decided to keep my transmit bandwidth a little narrower because I operate on 75 a lot. I try to keep piece and promote the flex radio as a clean radio among the critics off SDR radios. I have many compliments and a few saying I am 5 kcs wide since I have others listening and telling me they cannot hear me 3 kcs down I just ignor the gripes of others.
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Dale KB5VE

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My set up with a PR 40 is eq: 63,125,25,500 all flat 0. 1k +3, 2k +6, 4k +8, 8k +8

Processor dx but you can use what suits you.

Mic gain17 but remember I run a mic preamp

Low cut 50 to 100 depends on your voice high cut 2750 I have run 3000 but you are more likely to bother someone with it at 3000 and I believe the 2700 to 2750 is good.

I get good reports with it like this.
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Charles - K5UA

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Tim, what is the difference in dB between mic level and line level? They don't seem to be specified in common units.
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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You can designate the input in either dBV (decibel volts) for consumer equipment like a CD player or dBu (decibel unloaded) which is used for professional audio equipment.

There is a reference standard.
  • 0 dBV for consumer equipment (1 Volt)
  • 0 dBu for professional equipment (0.7746 Volts)
Line level comes in two "flavors"
  • -10 dBV for consumer equipment (0.316 V RMS)
  • +4 dBu for professional equipment (1.23 V RMS)
Microphones do not have a standard, but the output signal levels are very weak compared to line level, sometimes are low as -60 dBV
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Dale KB5VE

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Yes I have turned the mic preamp off and turned on the 20 db boost and increased the mic gain. Thorns listening said the audio with the mic preamp was smoother. Both sounded good but the audio with the mic pream was the best, just as Tim a
Had told me it would be.
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Charles - K5UA

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Thanks Tim, that has been bugging me for years. No wonder I can drive the pants off the BAL input of the 6500 with the line level output of my Symmetrix 528E Voice Processor, even with my quiet voice and minimal mic gain and no +20dB boost.
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Jim - N7CXI

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An 11.79 dB balanced attenuator between the processor and the 6500 would match the processor to the 6500, if an exact match was worth the trouble:

http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/

That site gives the values for an 11.79 dB unit. Just make sure to halve the given values of the series legs resistances for the balanced version.
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Dale KB5VE

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Played with it some more with wd5y Joe. He knows my voice and the way I sound. Incresed the low end some starting to get where I want to. Really miss the ability to hear what your final audio sounds like.