Duplicate sidetone

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I’m two weeks and 500 QSOs into my Flex 6600 with a Maestro.  Most of those QSOs are CW with some FT8 and RTTY.

I have a number of questions based on my experiences to date, especially today when I operated SO2R CW for the first time.  I will raise those questions here as a series of postings, so that anyone with advice or insight can respond selectively.

The operating setup is identical for all questions.

·        SmartSDR 2.2.8

·        N1MM+ 1.0.7201.0

·        Windows 8.1

·        Headphones are plugged into the radio, not the Maestro, speakers are not used

·        Paddles are plugged into the key jack on the radio and the Iambic setting set to Enabled and to B

Q3: Scenario: calling CQ on 20 meters on radio #2 (as defined by N1MM+) which is Slice B and tuning the 40 meter band on Slice A which is radio #1.  When I hear a signal I want to work on radio #1 I use the appropriate keyboard strokes to send a CW message on radio #1.  If I do this while radio #2 is NOT transmitting all is well.  If I do this while radio #2 is still transmitting its preprogrammed N1MM+ CQ message, the radio #2 message is stopped (that’s what you want) and the radio #1 message begins (that’s also what you want) but there is a double or duplicate sidetone from radio #1 as that message is being sent.  I hear the expected radio #1 sidetone at its desired volume along with a second, identical version of the sidetone which is delayed by just milliseconds from the first and, unfortunately, at a much higher volume.  The delayed version of the sidetone continues only until the first space in the preprogrammed message and then disappears.  If there is no space in the preprogrammed message the duplicate or second sidetone plays in its entirety.  Yes, I know this is weird.  Have I crossed into the twilight zone?

Tim K9WX
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Tim K9WX

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Posted 3 months ago

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Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP, Elmer

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Hi Tim, I have been working with more or less the same set up. Here are my experience.

From time to time with new versions of N1MM things get screwed up with the cat CW. Never though with dual side tone. Try another N1MM version.

Have you tried if the same phenomenom occurs with CW via an external Winkeyer?

What if you start with a space in message?

Does this happen the other way around? Working CQ on radio 1 to start with?

I usually test my SO2R set up slice per slice and store the respective TX and global settings. This makes a difference I have noticed. Sometimes I incidentilly qsy from n1mm to another band and then things can get screwed up. But loading global settings everything resumés to normal.

I Will test same set up next weekend during IARU HF contest.
Btw does this occur with Smart SDR or is it with Maestro only?
(Edited)
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Tim K9WX

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Hi, Kari, thanks for your reply.  Here are some answers to your questions.

My problem occurs with all versions of N1MM+ that I have tried.  I typically update to the latest version and am currently running 1.0.7208, which shows this behavior.  The problem was first noticed with version 1.0.7201, and was noticed with at least one version in between these two versions.

I have not tried with an external Winkeyer, just the Winkey emulator that is available in the radio.  I will add that to my list of things to check.

The problem occurs if I start a message with a space.

The problem occurs regardless of which radio begins the sequence.

The problem occurs with both SmartSDR and the Maestro.  I am currently running SSDR 2.3.7 and I also had the problem with SSDR 2.2.8.

I have also restored the radio to the factory default with no change.

I have posted a YouTube video that shows what is happening.  You can watch the video at https://youtu.be/YiKBKDV9QR8  All CW being sent in the video is done by using the N1MM+ preprogrammed messages.

In the video, I call CQ 3 times on the right radio, which is Slice B.

The first time I call CQ I let the Slice B message finish and then click the Slice A/left radio function key to send my callsign.  In this iteration, everything works as expected.  Notice the audio level of each slice's sidetone as each message is sent.

The second time I call CQ on the right or Slice B radio, I interrupt the message by clicking a Slice A/left radio function key to send my callsign.  The Slice B message is halted and the Slice A message is sent, but the sidetone audio for the Slice A message is considerably louder.  If you listen closely, you will actually hear my callsign in the sidetone twice from the Slice A radio.  There is the loud version and then a version at the normal, softer volume that is just slightly out of phase from the loud version.  This is what I mean by a duplicate sidetone.  Maybe echo is a better word.  As near as I can tell, this is only about the sidetone, the RF is sent normally without duplication.

The third time I call CQ on the right or Slice B radio, I interrupt the message by clicking a Slice A/left radio function key to send a CQ message.  The Slice B message is halted and the Slice A message is sent, but once again the sidetone audio for the Slice A message is considerably louder.  And, once again, there is a normal-volume version of the sidetone also heard but just slightly out of phase from the loud version.  In this case, however, the loud version of the sidetone stops after the CQ message gets, more or less, to its first space which is after the first "Q."  And once again, as near as I can tell, this is only about the sidetone, the RF is sent normally.
I have tried various setups to see if they affect the problem without success.  The video was made with one Winkey serving both slices and no PTT port.  I've also tried it with one PTT port per slice but still one Winkey serving both slices, and then with one PTT port per slice and one Winkey per slice.  The result is the same for all 3 setups.

Tim K9WX
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Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP, Elmer

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Hi Tim,
Sorry for the delayed response. I tried the video link but I could not access it.
What about TX delays? What value do you use?
Is the double tone also there if you take the audio out from the Maestro instead of the radio?
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Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP, Elmer

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Hi Tim,
Sorry for the delayed response. I tried the video link but I could not access it.
What about TX delays? What value do you use?
Is the double tone also there if you take the audio out from the Maestro instead of the radio?
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Tim K9WX

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Sorry about the bad video link.  The video was still in draft form within YouTube.  I have now marked it as public and you should be able to view it: https://youtu.be/YiKBKDV9QR8

I am using a TX delay usually in the low 200's:

I prefer a very low sidetone (set at 2 in the above screenshot) which is one reason the much louder duplicate sidetone is so distracting.  However, the duplicate sidetone is present regardless of the level to which I set the sidetone.  I tried it just now at 46 instead of 2, for example, and the duplicate is still there.

I hear no sidetone from the Maestro, either using the front speaker or the Maestro's rear headphone jack, although there is receive audio for both slices.  But I do hear the duplicate sidetone, from both the Maestro's front speaker and it's rear headphone jack.  Perhaps there is some combination of settings require to make the sidetone active on the Maestro that I have not discovered.
Tim K9WX
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Tim K9WX

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Kari, what is your advice for setting up (SO2R CW and N1MM+) these options:
  1. PTT via radio command?  I have left this box in the N1MM configurer unchecked for both radios.
  2. Because of the above, I have not set up any PTT ports in SSDR or in N1MM.
  3. I have a single Winkey port in SSDR and both radios in N1MM use the same Winkey port to send CW
Are these OK or would you advise setting up differently?
Tim K9WX
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Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP, Elmer

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Hi Tim,
I never use PTT. I see no meaning with that for CW.
Winkeyer setting seems OK.
Have you checked the OTRSP in the CW setting?
Let me post you tomorrow my settings. Sorry for the delay I have been occupied by my 82 year old mother. at the hospital.73s.
(Edited)