CW sidetone

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Does anyone have any idea when the CW sidetone will be available to monitor via DAX so it can be monitored remotely?

73
Greg
AB7R
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Greg

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Posted 5 years ago

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W1RE

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Any updates on this? I am using 'LAN Remote' but cannot hear my sidetone when using the internal keyer and it's damn near impossible to operate CW without hearing your sidetone!  Is this on the roadmap or expected any time soon? I am thinking this become more urgent with remote WAN in 2.0.

What is everybody else doing if you're using LAN remote?
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Al K0VM, Elmer

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Isn't CW side tone available through the default PC speaker when SSDR REMOTE feature is active for LAN ?   DAX is not involved.  Seems to work for me.. Or maybe I dont understand your needs..
AL, K0VM
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W1RE

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Hi Al,

Thanks for your reply. I am able to hear the sidetone out the headphone and rear speaker connection in the rear of my 6700 when remote is not enabled; but when I enable remote I am able to hear the slice receiver(s) output signal through my PC's selected default sound device but not the CW sidetone (which is enabled at 100) (please see attachment).

Are you saying this works for you? If so then I think I need to open a Help desk ticket because it doesn't work for me.

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Al K0VM, Elmer

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Yes, It works for me... I am using SSDR v 1.5.0  It did not work in first LAN  REMOTE versions but I don't recall when it was phased in.  The remote side tone does work only for SSDR generated CW, The remote side tone does not work for keying through the key jack on the radio.

AL, K0VM
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W1RE

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> The remote side tone does work only for SSDR generated CW, The remote side tone does not work for keying through the key jack on the radio.

I think this might be my problem.  I am using a physical key in the jack onthe front of the radio. So what your saying is sidetone when in Remote only works for CWX or is there some other way to use a real key in Remote mode and still hear the sidetone?
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Al K0VM, Elmer

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Well Remote assumes  not local to the radio... And there is no current way to plug key into the PC.  Although a WINKEY REMOTE type function could possibly be implimented.to support a remote key.

AL, K0VM
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Al is correct. When operating remote, CW sidetone is only generated when you are operating using CWX and it is generated locally at the PC.  Due to latency delays when operating remote, sidetone is not available when using the keyer that is internal to the radio.  
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Asher - K0AU

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Tim, It would be really nice to get CW sidetone fed back on the DAX/remote channel (perhaps when IAMBIC mode is turned off).  Latency within reason is not an issue for this use case.

I use a WinKeyer on a remote LAN serial port for contest keying with N1MM+ because I couldn't get CWX over CAT to respond to the ESC key (to stop sending a macro when I fat-fingered a function key).  ESC works fine with a remote WinKeyer.
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W1RE

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I too would also like to ability to selectively enable or disable CW sidetone on the DAX receive audio. I am getting better audio quality in LAN Remote mode and less interference than through the speakers directly connected to the audio on on the rear of my 6700.
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k3Tim

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If I may add to this thread..  Sidetone (selectable) on the remote channel  would be desirable when using a physical key hooked to the 6k while using the attached PC's audio capability. Example - when doing SWL and using headphones plugged into the PC with 6K in remote mode all is good. Switch to CW, all is good until you hit the bug and hear nothing although RF squirts out. The ah-ha moment hits and I realize I have to reconfigure the audio to run CW.  For such a high speed connection (dedicated 1Ghz LAN) the delay can't be to bad, IP stack protocol notwithstanding.

W1RE:
I had a difficult time removing RFI from attached speaker on ACC.  Folks out here advised a Studio Monitor speaker - excellent advise.  Very good quality sound and the input is "Pro" differential.  Used a small transformer to convert the ACC unbalanced to balanced and remove ground reference.  The RFI was cured!

_..--
k3Tim
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Steve - N5AC, VP Engineering / CTO

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Today, there are two key ways to send CW: from a paddle/key or from CWX.  The paddle/key can only be plugged into the radio today -- there is no way to plug a paddle into the PC when operating remote.  Sidetone needs to be immediate for any paddle/key operation and so sidetone is generated locally on the radio when the paddle/key is plugged in there.  For remote, the expectation is that you are really remote -- that you will not be keying the radio from a paddle/key on the radio since the PC is remote.  For this reason, there didn't seem to be any reason to send the sidetone to the PC.

For CWX operation when remote, we do have local feedback (sidetone) on the PC.  I think it is likely that we will add some kind of paddle/key support on the PC for remote operation, but this is not yet scheduled.  This was brought up in another thread also.  Maestro has an internal keyer (a Winkeyer 3 from K1EL Systems) and we will have local sidetone in the Maestro for this keyer.
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Bob Wright, N7ZO

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Hi Steve,

Since you are implementing a Winkeyer in Maestro, there must be an Ethernet API to support this.  Will this be public?

73, Bob, N7ZO
(Edited)
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Steve - N5AC, VP Engineering / CTO

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We are discussing exactly how this will work.  Thinking out loud, we may implement a new port type in CAT that appears to be a Winkeyer that will forward all commands to the Winkeyer.  It would just be a virtual serial port that looks like just another Winkeyer.  This idea did get some concern from other engineers here, though, so we'll need to look at in detail in the next few weeks when we implement that part of Maestro.  There is also some concern that someone could "brick" the Winkeyer in Maestro if we are not careful and it's no longer a chip you can pull off the board ;-)  More details when we know, but I do think that it's purpose would be greatly diminished if we didn't allow loggers direct access to the chip.
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Wayne, W5XD

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I'll add a reason for supporting radio-back-to-PC sidetone audio channel: recording the as-sent CW, especially for contest operations. With the Flex today, the only way to get a recording of the transmitted CW is to cable the Flex analog phones output to a PC sound board. If I got to choose where the Flex would put a sidetone, I would put it on the DAX audio RX channel corresponding to the transmitting Slice (even though it is a TX sidetone.) Overlaying the sidetone on the RX audio would make the recording channel selection more-or-less match what happens on analog rigs today. That is, the CW sidetone appears on the same analog channel as the received audio. I just wish the Flex would do the analogous thing for DAX RX.
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John G3WGV

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+1 from me on the issue of recording both sides of a CW QSO. This is a perplexing omission and it is patently ludicrous to have to convert digital audio to analogue and then pipe it through a sound card, where it is promptly digitised again.

This issue has been mentioned several times in the past and I even wrote a proposal paper about a year ago. Tim advised at that time that it was in the enhancements list. It doesn't seem like it ought to be that hard to do but the guys have been rather busy with V2.
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Sergey, R5AU

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I am agree , my +1 here, i understand why CW tone not transmitting thought the DAX , however dedicated channel of the DAX for recording purpose must be
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Jim G3YLA

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Another +1 from me. I valued the CW sidetone on the output via VAC in PSDR with my Flex 3000 to monitor CW sending habits. A great shame its not available in SSDR on my Flex 6500, regardless of remote/Maestro issues, just a good CW practice to be able to monitor sending with say CWGet etc. 73 de Jim G3YLA
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Tico

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+1 from me to. I try to setup a remote N1MM contest configuration and I like to hear what N1MM transmits.
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Stan - VA7NF

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+1 from me to and not just remote.  Since the limited edition I've had to plug the key into the 6X00 to hear both N1MM and my keying, even on my own subnet.
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Carsten, DL6LAU

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Hi there, 

is it possible meanwhile? Tried with Win-Test and N1MM+ over the weekend and it seems not. Is it really not possible to monitor the CW transmission if sent with a logging software for instance?

If not, is there a workaround? Plans to introduce it soon?

Thanks,

Carsten, DL6LAU
(Edited)
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Timo - OH5KW

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I have been using Remoterig RRC-1258 boxes for audio from remote flex. They have low latency and are "robust" All other tasks are done via VPN, including CW-skimmers. Remote CW-contesting is possible with extra HW.
Timo, OH5KW
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K9SO

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Another use case:

I keep all my radios in the basements of both of my QTHs. I operate the local stations from the living room in comfort via LAN using a PC under the table and my remote stations from the same lounge chair via WAN and a Maestro. But when I operate CW locally via LAN, I have no sidetone (I can't hear it in the basement!). I do the same thing when I'm at the other house, but in reverse. 

I've had to put Winkeyers upstairs in both operating locations and run separate keying lines down to the basement radios. At least now I have a sidetone I can hear. 

I have small, family-friendly operating positions. But now everyone else can hear the sidetone too. I now have to add mixers and modify the Winkeyers to feed it into my headphones.

It sure seems odd that I can operate my remotes from 800 miles away and have a local sidetone but I can't when I operate via the LAN. No, CWT is not the answer. I hate keyboard CW. Yes, I could get another Maestro but sometimes I like the big screen. 

As much as I like my two Winkeyers, I hope they're not the permanent solution here. 

73,
Fred
K9SO
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VE6WZ

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Does the new 2.4.9 address this ability to to have a sidetone delivered from the a remote when being keyed by N1MM at the remote location?
I have borrowed a friends 6700 and I like the radio, but I can't buy the radio without this functionality.
If this new update isn't a solution, is Flex going to continue to kick this can down the road or will they actually make it available in the near term?
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Max, N5NHJ

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Brand new 6400, I like it but I just discovered there is no sidetone using the radio remote and the winkeyer emulation. Disappointing that this issue has been discussed for some years without being addressed somehow. I had to use my SDR receiver to listen to my note. 
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K9SO

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Max, 

Pardon my lengthy response, but your post has triggered my "stump speech" on this subject.

There are two kinds of "sidetones" being discussed here in this thread. One is an artificially generated tone to allow CW paddle keying and the other is monitoring the actual signal. I'm going to address the former here. I realize your case is somewhat different, but they are related. 

As you are probably aware, the issue with CW sidetones in any remote radio system is latency. In my case, operating from 800 miles away, I see overall latencies of over 500mS from the time I send a "dit" to the time I hear it via another radio. Try sending paddle CW with that kind of delay! It's not possible. 

So the sidetones must be generated local to the sender in order to overcome this latency issue. Even having a DAX channel to send the tone generated by the radio's internal audio (local speaker) back to the sender would see unacceptable latencies. 

What this means is that when paddle keying remotely with a PC, a local box external to the PC is required. That box must interface a keyer or paddle to the PC which, along with PC software and radio firmware, will key the radio and artificially produce a local sidetone while handling the delays associated with the latency in the software/firmware combination.

Flex has addressed this issue with the Maestro. Upon connection, the Maestro measures the connection latency and adjusts the keying accordingly, and generates a local sidetone  [this feature doesn't work with SmartSDR 3.x ... but that's different thread]. This works reasonably well with SmartSDR 2.4.9 and below but it requires you to shell out another $1200 for a Maestro.

A company called Microbit, under the website RemoteRig.com, sells a pair of remote radio connection boxes. While you don't need the remote features in that system with your 6400, they do have a very good system of remote paddle keying included. Their system allows you to adjust for latencies and even jitter in the connections, includes a local operator keyer with local sidetone, and other useful features that include 2-way audio links and several serial servers. Unfortunately, these will set you back almost $500 too. 

When at home I also operate "LAN remote" with the radio several hundred feet away from my operating position. I have had to run a cable between the two sites carrying the paddle leads to the radio and returning the radio speaker audio for sidetone. 

Unfortunately, Flex engineers obviously consider remote paddle CW with local sidetone a "corner case". Even with a Maestro, their latest software versions don't work properly [there is a known bug associated with this].

The remote operating features introduced in SmartSDR 2.x don't address the sidetone or paddle CW issues.

Even with Kenwood, Icom, Yaesu, or Elecraft radios, the RemoteRig interface provides a far better CW and SSB remote experience than SmartSDR 2.x does. A separate keyer box that would interface to a PC  would solve the problem since 2.x does everything else. Unfortunately, that's not FlexRadio's thing. 

Considering the fact that even the FlexRadio Maestro solution doesn't work with SmartSDR 3.x now, I would hope that they could do something ... eventually.

73,
Fred
K9SO



















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Max, N5NHJ

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Hi Fred,
Thank you for your answer and suggestions. I'm aware of the Maestro capabilities, I'm also aware of the RemoteRig hardware that indeed I used for the last 3 years. I'm aware of the jitter and of any other issue about remoting. I also understand that in this thread and in similar threads among the community there are discussions about different issues ans scenarios. So, to clarify, I'm talking about using SmartSDR from remote (actually remote or local doesn't make any difference in my scenario) and use external software, say N1MM to stay with a standard, to generate CW through the Winkeyer SmartCAT interface. In this scenario, no any kind of audio feedback is generated and this is a sensitive issue for a CW operator. The weird part about this is that using the CWX panel, audio is indeed generated, so the question is why it is not possible to use the same logic and generate an audio from the SmartCAT virtual Winkeyer? This will make the SmartCAT virtual Winkeyer even more compatible with the real Winkeyer.

About the different topic you touched, that is using a paddle remotely, I have successfully tested a different solution that uses a real Winkeyer talking to the SmartCat Winkeyer. So, yes, I can use a paddle to control the remote radio (without latency issues) and get a local tone. But this was not part of my previous message.
73, Max   
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Russ McIntyre K8AH

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Hi Fred. I have one WinKeyer USB. I run a lot of CWX remote but have never taken the time to get the remote CW working with a Paddle. Do you use only one WinKeyer? Or do you have 2 WinKeyers , one on each end?
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K9SO

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Russ, I believe that question was directed at Max. I'm not aware of how that works. Perhaps Max would like to offer a detailed explanation.

73,
Fred
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py7rp

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I am so disapointed about that. Just bought a Flex-6500 a couple weeks ago to try to go remote and, for a 2k+ dollars it has no sidetone in cw during remote operations? really frustating. I am still on my way to get used with Flex but this will make my experience really bad. I thought buying a Flex i would be able to throw away all my previous remote hardware but i will keep it untill i am sure Flex is a good option.
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K9SO

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To PY7RP:

Just to be clear: when operating remotely without a Maestro (e.g., with only SmartSDR), you must use CWX (the built-in keyboard keying feature) for CW. It works well and CWX has a locally generated sidetone.

We're talking about paddle CW here which Flex does not support for remote operation except through the Maestro. If you don't mind keyboard CW, you'll have a great experience with remote CW operation. 

73,
Fred
K9SO
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Carsten, DL6LAU

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... I like keyboard CW but no way to use any of the 'contest software programs' if only CWX works ... 

73ss

Carsten, DL6LAU
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Max, N5NHJ

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Again, we are talking about several scenario here, let me clarify and add some tips for the paddle.

Scenario 1 - SmartSDR (local or remote, doesn't matter) using keyboard and CWX.
Everything is ok, SmartSDR (not the radio) generates a (fake) sitetone, no latecy.

Scenario 2 - A logging software (e.g. N1MM, DX4WIN) is interfaced to SmartSDR to generate the code.
SmartSDR doesn't support any other option but configuring a 'virtual' winkeyer though SmartCAT. The logging software (assuming it can control a winkeyer) will be configured to interface to the 'virtual' winkeyer exposed by SmartCAT. This way the radio will generate a perfect CW. the problem with this configuration is no sidetone (real from the radio or fake from SmartSDR) is generated in anyway, so you are blind (or deft, if you like). There is not any workaround, Flex must address this (not very hard...) somehow.

Now, on a total different topic... Is it possible to generate CW using the paddle? What I did is tricky but works. To do this you need a real Winkeyer, connected to the same computer where you run SmartSDR. Download from K1EL the WKremote utility and run 2 instances of it, one will be configured like the local client, connected to the real Winkeyer, the other one configured as a server connect to the 'virtual' Winkeyer exposed by SmartSDR. Your code from the paddle will be converted in ASCII text, passed from the first Winkeyer to the second, and transmitted by the radio. No latency, local sidetone. The suggestion is to run the local winkeyer with a slightly higher speed than the radio winkeyer to compensate for delay generated by the Winkeyer logic. I've asked K1EL to modify WKRemote the way we just need one for this job, maybe he will agree. A side note... SmartCAT can generate more than one 'virtual' Winkeyer, so you can have your logging software and the paddle working at same time.


73, Max
 
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Max, N5NHJ

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Russ McIntyre K8AH

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Hi MAX.
I just got this to work last night. It works as well as any situation you use a WinKeyer box.  What I mean is there is the side tone heard in the room and this can be an issue to others(wife) hearing the cw tone and also if you have headphones that block out the room noise it can also block the cw tone coming from the WinKeyer.
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Max, N5NHJ

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Hi Russ,
The local winkeyer sidetone can be turn on and off, volume can be lowered, and the audio output can be connected to the PC.
I understand this is not an ideal situation, but if you want to use your paddle I don't see other options, unfortunately. I don't work for Flex, anything else should come from them...
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K9SO

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I ran a 33 ohm resistor from the emitter of Q1 in the Winkeyer to a 1/8" jack I mounted on the side. I can plug in powered speakers if I want high volume sidetone or run both the radio and keyer sidetone audio to this $24 mixer:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KGYAYQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Plug in your headphones and you're good to go. 
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Russ McIntyre K8AH

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Hi Max,
You are a funny guy  - turn off sidetone.  Sorry.....  it just struct me funny.  That's what started this thread no CW sidetone.  Anyway I digress.  You did say something else that caught my attention...  "the audio output can be connected to the PC".  What do you mean by that?  Can you actually run the WK side tone to the PC??  I looked but don't see how that is done.  Please elaborate.
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Max, N5NHJ

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Russ, I hope you're enjoying I'm funny. You are complaining about the sidetone, the wife, the noise... than turn it of! Hi Hi...
You can just pull the audio out from the internal speaker as Fred says, and put it in the mic or line input of your computer. If you need more control and you don't like an hardware audio mixer, you can try a very powerful software one:
https://www.vb-audio.com/Voicemeeter/potato.htm

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Russ McIntyre K8AH

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I should not humor myself at your expense.  I hope you took it as pure jest and not seriously.
I have been struggling with remote cw for awhile.  It seems I am not alone.  I had given up until your suggestion came along.  It did not make sense to to have two WK when there is already one available in SmartSDR.  I had used N4PY to do this(Carl had it figured out) when I had my TS-480 remoted before getting my Flex.
I really appreciate the suggestion of using two instances of WK at the remote site.  It does actually work quite well.
I have been using CWX for DX work but I like a paddle for conversations or the occasional quick conversation.  I started using a paddle back in about 1971, so it still feels very natural to me as opposed to typing on a keyboard.
As far as the audio is concerned I probably won't try the PC route for now and wait for Flex to add cw sidetone for the virtual WK.( That way it( the sidetone )is in my headphones and solves the wife issue and the noise cancelling headphone issue.
Russ  
(Edited)
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Max, N5NHJ

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Russ, no problems at al!!! I'm an easy going person.
I'm happy the TwinWKremote solution worked out well for you, I do like the paddle as well, keyboard is not for CW.
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Tim VE6SH

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Max. See VE6WZ’s work around https://youtu.be/MFCllprEel8

Tim VE6SH
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Max, N5NHJ

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Tim, thank you for the suggestion. I don't want to have a computer at the remote site, though. This is why I purchased a Flex.
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K9SO

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Thanks Tim.

I'm sure this would work but I've been remoting on HF since the late 1980's and over the years I've used almost every method conceivable. I have one hard and fast rule: No PC in the operating loop of the remote station. My remote PCs have crashed countless times causing unrecoverable problems.

Perhaps I'm still gun shy from the days when Windows was more unstable (remember Windows 7?) but I still don't like to have to rely on a remote PC.

BTW, VE6WZ is slightly incorrect about how RemoteRig does the keying: they don't use the jitter buffer for anything other than the VoIP connection. They simply send out UDP packets with key down and key up information and then delay them for a period of time roughly equal to the RTT. If any packets are delayed (jitter) the packet delay buffer simply gives them time to get back in the proper timing order. 

Then they generate a local sidetone and mute any tone audio that might come back from the radio end. 

This technique works well even for high latency connections like mine (I remote from over 800 miles away). You might get an occasional lost UDP packet but that happens a very small percentage of the time and just hurts one or two dits out of thousands. 

The Maestro worked fairly well too and it  allowed me to get rid of the RemoteRig boxes in the keying loop. Everything worked fine until they broke something in the  SmartSDR V3.x releases. (known issue).

I've gone back to RemoteRig keying again since the Maestro - V3.x method of keying no longer works. That gives me local sidetone and good remote paddle keying without jumping through hoops or waiting to set up a remote PC.

The Maestro still works with SmartSDR V.2.4.9 or earlier, but I really would like to use 3.x for several reasons.

I don't know what needs fixing in V3.x, but I sure hope they get to the issue eventually. 
(Edited)
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Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP, Elmer

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Remote CW sidetone is possible!

Hi all, since 10 years I run a remote contest station with no PC (to increase up time). I have been using the remote rig boxes BUT Matt NQ6N, described a local Winkeyer solution with Flex API:s that with a high propability will provide both local CW sidetone ( from a physical winkeyer or paddle) and local PC keying N1MM. See here: https://groups.io/g/RemoteKeyerInterface.

It works for pure local CW keying of a remote Flexradio and now "we" only need to test the local PC keying. I have not had the time to do it but I do not see any problems getting it to work.

So there is an acceptable potential solution just around the corner till Flex works it out.

73 Kari SM0HRP

http://remotedxandcontestblog.sm0hrp.se/
(Edited)
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K9SO

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Thanks for that information Kari. I've joined the group so that I may watch for the progress. I'm sure it will not be hard to find beta testers.

73,
Fred
K9SO