CW keying, is it working well for you?

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I was using my Palm Radio SL paddle with my radio from the "E" company. It was so easy. I thought well,,,, so I plugged in the N3ZN SL paddle in the "E" radio and it was so easy. But I have a hard time sending good consistent CW with the 6500. It was not always that way. Anyone else notice this? I will have to dig up an external keyer and see if the 6500 becomes "so easy". 
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KM6CQ - Dan

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Posted 3 years ago

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k3Tim

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I have a N3ZN 9CRB paddle hooked to the front CW jack and a Vibroplex bug attached to the rear panel ACC jack and do not see a keying issue with either.  Perhaps the Iambic "A" or "B" setting needs swapped.  For me at least, setting the WPM properly is important and not getting ahead of the electronic keyer.  Nice thing about a bug is it's hard to out run it.

The Iambic keyer seems to operate the same as the one in a "TT" radio. To me the bug seems easier to use though.

I'd be curious if your electronic keyer performs differently.
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K2CM

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I use the internal keyer jon my F6.7k. Works perfectly. Do try changing the iambic settings to see which you like. I use iambic B.
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Rick Hadley - W0FG

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I'm using my old original Bencher BY-1, and alternating back and forth between it and CWX.  Before we got CWX, I used a CMOS-4 keyer for the memory functions.  I haven't noticed any degradation in keying ability going directly into the Flex with the Bencher paddle.
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Lee, Elmer

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I use 2 N3ZN SL paddles.  My original paddle is SN-1, designed to my specification and is the prototype for the ZN SL series.  It is the best performing paddle I have ever used in terms of error reduction, reliability and ease of sending.  I completely agree with the notion of it being an "easy" paddle to use so if you're having trouble and the paddle is adjusted correctly meaning you can send good code for example in your Elecraft, it's not the paddle.   I have no issues using my 6500 or 6300 with internal keyer, external keyer, or remote CW keying using the IW7DMH remote keying interface with either ZN.  Even though I do not use "iambic" timing my xmtr is set to mode B.  

You mention "it was not always that way"  Can you expound more on when things changed?  Are you a QSK user or do you use some delay?  Is your amp QSK, if you use an amp? Is it possible one of the timing controls in the setup interface was inadvertently mis-adjusted?

 
73  W9OY  
(Edited)
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KM6CQ - Dan

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Hi Lee,
I also use a ZN-SL, however I also noticed it with the Sculpture Iambic. I do not run QSK, I don't like the clicking. There seems to be something going on occasionally that is not in time with my rhythm. If I said I key in 4/4 time, it would be like being one 1/4 note short in a measure sometimes, even though I played the note. 
When I feel it is not in the pocket, I can switch the same ZN-SL to the KX3 and the problem goes away. Trouble is I cannot yet determine a pattern that brings the issue on, and last night it was just fine. Maybe it will disappear in 1.5, I am not sure I can point to a particular release and say it started there. When I decided to move from 8.1 Pro to 10, I will do a clean install. Maybe that will take care of it. 
This weekend I will locate my old Logic 3 keyer and see if that clears it up. 
I have it packed away at this time.  Thank you for your thoughts.

Dan
(Edited)
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Marco

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If I said I key in 4/4 time, it would be like being one 1/4 note short in a measure sometimes, even though I played the note. 
Hi Dan,

You have confirmed that you are in the iambic mode that you expect? This comment makes me think that this may indeed be the problem.

Thanks,
Marco, KG5FBV
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Lee, Elmer

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Is there possibly a network timing issue between the computer and the 6500 or something that pushes the processor (CPU) to near 100% utilization like running 4 skimmers or something?  Like I said it's not the paddle.  I have a KX3 also and don't see any difference between the radios

73   
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KM6CQ - Dan

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With the Skimmer running, logbook, DDUTIL, VSP and Minideluxe my cpu is 6% on TX and 7% on RX
I am on now and it's fine. Ethernet shows 15.4 Mbps, Memory 52%
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DK1KQ

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I am running CW only and can coppare F3k and F6300. Was surprised that the "zero beat funktion" was lost.
Using Internal elbug, external bencher and my old , mostly using  Heathkit Sensor el-bug
( SA-5010) as well. My op speed is max 30WPM.
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Marco

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Hi, can you explain the zero beat funktion?
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Marco - see feature request #2205 in Git.
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Al / NN4ZZ

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Hi Tim,
Is #2205 in Git the same as this idea?

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/ssdr_autozerobeat_on_cw_click_tune

31 votes so far and #5 in the most wanted list of ideas.


Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com
6700 - HW V 1.4.16.63
SSDR V 1.4.16.142
Win10
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Sort of.  It is not CWSkimmer specific.  As written, it would tune the slice to the strongest carrier closest to the slice frequency.
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Al / NN4ZZ

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Thanks Tim,
That is perfect and should fix the CW Skimmer synch problem also.   If not we'll have to get Alex (CWS author) to look at it. 

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com
6700 - HW V 1.4.16.63
SSDR V 1.4.16.142
Win10
 
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K1ESE

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I have always found the timing of the 6300 and 6500 keyer to be strange.  I have to use an external keyer - Logikey or Winkeyer.  If your fist doesn't mind the timing, that's handy. 

73 de K1ESE
John
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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Can you describe "strange" in more specific detail?
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K1ESE

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Tim -

To be specific, and I am talking about my impressions and my fist, there seem to be two things the Flex keyer lacks.  First, there seems to be no dot or dash memory.  Second, there is no way to adjust weight.

Most manufacturers have adopted the old Curtis timing as a standard.  That's what it feels like in my K3 or my Orion.  When a radio has different timing parameters it is difficult for me to switch between radios.  I suppose I could learn to send without the dot and dash memories, but that means adapting my fist to the radio.  I expect the radio to adapt to my fist.

As an example, you can see that these are some common timing emulations - 

Logikey K1, K3 timing w/dot and dash memory
Logikey K1, K3 timing w/dot memory only
Logikey K1, K3 timing w/dash memory only
Accukeyer timing w/dot and dash memory
Accukeyer timing w/dot memory only
Accukeyer timing w/dash memory only
Curtis "A" timing w/dot and dash memory
Curtis "A" timing w/dot memory only
Curtis "A" timing w/dash memory only
Iambic timing w/no dot or dash memory
Curtis "B" timing w/dot and dash memory

With so many possibilities out there you can see why most gravitate to Curtis A/B.  But, even then there are minor differences in dot/dash ratio or 'switchpoint'.

My only point is that the keyer in the Flex is strange compared to other radios or keyers.  That doesn't make it wrong, just different.

73 de K1ESE
John
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Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager

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John - thank you very much for the detailed explanation.  We have an existing feature request to expose the CW weighting controls.  I have just added your info as a new feature request for supporting the common timing emulations and dot/dash memory.
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KM6CQ - Dan

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John, I think you may have figured it out. I am very youst to using a CMOS3 keyer. 
I think my KX3 may be very similar to that and my 6500 is not. 
It could be that simple.

Thanks,   Dan  KM6CQ
(Edited)
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Ken W9IE

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I have just discovered that on my 6700 using the latest version of SmartSDR that Mode A and Mode B perform exactly the same.

Try the following and see if others get the same result.

I set the Speed to 5 WPM so it is easy to follow the patterns.

In Mode A to send the letter C, press the DAH paddle,
Hold it and quickly press and hold the DIT paddle.
The Flex Keyer will send DAH DIT DAH DIT,
When the last DIT is being sent release both paddles and the Character STOPS.

When you change to Mode B if you do the same and when it is in the middle
of the second DAH, you release the paddles it should send the opposite character.
Which is the last DIT in the letter C.

The Flex keyer does not follow the rule for Mode B.

I do not know when this changed,  but I believe it was correct at some time in the past.

73's   Ken  W9IE
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John

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I agree that having the cw weight operator controllable would be great for my sending style.
Also would like to see the cw speed slider control easier to control. 0 WPM to 100!! wastes space and does not allow fine tuning of speed. Can the speed control offer a choice of 0- 50 WPM for example, so the "normal" speeds are not all packed into the low end of slider adjustment space?

Thanks, John  W3NA
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Charles - K5UA

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Hi John,
Did not get on this discussion 6 months ago when it was started. I have always had trouble with any and all American keyers because none have the variable dash/dot ratio capability that has been a feature of Kenwood/Yaesu/Icom transceivers for the past 20 years. Variable dash/dot ratio should not be confused with the feature called "weight". Variable dash/dot ratio adds length only to the dash elements, where "weight" adds length to both the dashes and dots. Standard CW is a 3:1 dash/dot ratio, but this ratio sounds dull and is more difficult to send compared to a 3.6:1 dash/dot ratio. Find a friend with a recent Icom/Kenwood/Yaesu transceiver and find the menu item that allow you to change the dash/dot ratio to 3.6:1. Send some CW into a dummy load and decide for yourself if the resultant CW has a musical "swing" to it that is much easier to send and copy.

I don't know if variable dash/dot ratio has been patented and must be licensed or not, but it would be a nice feature to add to the Flex keyer someday. It is a feature of the WinKeyer in the microHam keyer, so I thought we might see it in the Flex Winkeyer, but it is not (yet).

I will go so far as to say that you could send better CW with with a crummy paddle into a keyer with 3.6:1 dash/dot ratio than you could with the best paddle into a keyer with fixed 3:1 dash/dot ratio.

CW op since 1959........ K5UA
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KM6CQ - Dan

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While we are on this topic, A cool feature would be to add "Bug Mode" 

Dan
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James T. Lee

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agree absolutely