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Chicken or egg?

DrTeeth
DrTeeth Member ✭✭
edited June 2020 in SmartSDR for Windows
I am just asking something here for general information.

When designing a rig like those in the 6000 series, does one design the hardware and decide what features to add later or does one start designing after one has a feature list?

I cannot see how one can do the former as there seems to be no end to the features that can be added. Regarding the latter, it would be too limiting as unthought of features could not be added later.

I am just interested in the general design process.

TIA

Answers

  • W4YXU
    W4YXU Member
    edited June 2020
    I don't know how relevant this is but I did a club program on FPGA's (Field programmable gate arrays) and the subtitle was " Build it then design it!"

    Jim
    W4YXU
  • DrTeeth
    DrTeeth Member ✭✭
    edited August 2016
    That does sound interesting. Do you have any info I can look at?


  • W4YXU
    W4YXU Member
    edited April 2016
    The program was about 5 years ago and the project about 10.  I will try to find the presentation file... But I am a pack-rat with data as well as stuff!

    I would suggest the Altera website as I used their components since the development software was FREE!

    http://www.altera.com/

    Jim
    W4YXU


  • DrTeeth
    DrTeeth Member ✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Thanks for trying to find the file. I find things like this interesting even though I know next to nothing about them.

    OT: Similarly, mass production fascinatingly magical. Yes, I am subscribed to the appropriate YouTube channels ;-).

    Have a great weekend.
  • Bill -VA3WTB
    Bill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Wow great question Guy. At Flex there are two camps that work close together. The software guys and the hardware guys and guys that can work with both.

    I would imagine several meetings. they would talk about a new radio. But this won't be just any radio this would be something completley new to ham radio. And it needs to be able to do this and that.

    So what kind of hardware can we put together to make this happen?
    The hardware guys would say they have a platform with this kind of performance. and they would talk about if it would handle all the needs going foreword.

    I have read hear in places were some Flex guys at Flex commented that they have been surprised as to the kind of abilities the hardware has. more than they imagined.
  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2020
    Guy,  The way I understand it is this:  (in extremely layman's terms, which is about all I can understand).

    When designing SDR radios, especially like the 6000 series, you are starting with an antenna port and creating one (or more) of many types of Analog-to-Digital converters.  (and the reverse for transmit, along with switching, amplification and audio circuits.) Follow the A to D converter with processing, convert it to audio, and you are in business!

    After that, all the "radio stuff" is done in software.  So you select a processor(s) powerful enough to make any calculations necessary to do "whatever."  You have a standard subset of functions you want to have, but know that there will be a myriad of additional "radio stuff" functions, so you add a little more muscle and memory to do the job.   And in the case of the 6000 series, as much as the production costs will allow...

    Once you have decided upon which Processors you will be using, you turn the software team loose to program the basic functions, create an effective user interface, and then start adding bells and whistles.  All of this while the hardware team finalizes the inputs and outputs, connectors and interfaces, etc.

    So it is essentially a parallel development process.  like Bill said.
    Software development cannot begin until basic hardware decisions are made, but hardware doesn't need to be fully complete before software development begins.  Then as both teams communicate, they both alter their designs and expectations.  Probably involving hardware guys saying..."you can't do that," or "Have you thought about doing this?  The hardware will support it."    And the Software guys saying "You are joking? You can't do that in software, but you can add a couple of hardware parts and we can key it with software."  or "We are thinking about this really neat function, and all it needs from the hardware is...."

    Oh, to be a fly on the wall in the early stages of product development! .... It must have been entertaining at times, and frustrating as heck at others!

    Now, I may be totally overruled by the FRS team and shown to be full of hot air, or at least a few misconceptions, but this is what I have gleaned from many articles I have read.

    Ken - NM9P
    (Steve and others, please be merciful!  hi hi.)
  • Stan VA7NF
    Stan VA7NF Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016

    Two associated thoughts:

    Number 1:  We are looking at version 1 of hardware and software coming together.  Tie together a super-computer and a group of components (e.g. Rx, Tx, Com layer, ...) with controllable hooks and features (our hardware) with initial software on that computer.  Let it stew for a couple of years and we see what it can do, and start to see how to do it better.  Now dream/imagine/blue sky/... towards the next generation.  The 6000 series is that base.  It is the V2 where these dreams become reality.  Looking forward to the 7000 series that will do things we can hardly dream about.

    So far the amateur community is fixated on what we can do with V1 of the hardware/software;  it has been around a year and we are just getting our heads around the present.  It is time to imagine the "impossible" as that will be our future.

    Number 2:  Flex radio has a military division.  The "crowd funding" exercise from Dayton to delivery should become a textbook example for technology funding.  Guy, my "chicken and egg" thought is which drives what?  Amateur funding/test bed/community vs military deep pockets/strategic direction/ vs new components R&D.

    oops - That's three and it blows the chicken and egg analogy.

    Perhaps we should have another community thread for pure science / dreaming type discussions; one that forbids the "when will it be implemented" question and leaves the "the noise mitigation doesn't meet present day expectations" type question in the past.

    73s

    Stan Williams - VA7NF
    A dreamer that has, for example, seen James Kirk's communicator become the flip-phone and then morph into that do-everything hand held we take for granted. and **** Tracey's watch become modern wearables.


  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Stan, my wife handed me my iPad yesterday and said, "Do you remember watching Star Trek Next Generation and dreaming about having a tablet that would allow you to read a book and type messages?"  

    Yes, those of us who are old enough to remember Star Trek Generations 1 and 2 have seen a LOT of things become reality, including Lt. Ohura's little 'baby bottle' in her ear that has become the Bluetooth earpiece....

    I have been a dreamer ever since watching the original episodes as a kid in the 60's!

    Ken - NM9P
  • James Kirk
    James Kirk Member
    edited November 2014
    Ditto
  • Bill -VA3WTB
    Bill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Hey guys, did you see were Tim said this the other day? ( getting ready for Dayton, a new SmartSDR software release and that new thing we are going to talk more about tomorrow, )  I wonder what he meant ...do you think they have more planed?
  • James Whiteway
    edited November 2014
    I think that post was from earlier this year.
  • Bill -VA3WTB
    Bill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    I think your right!!
  • DrTeeth
    DrTeeth Member ✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Doctor Who was and is my Sci-Fi ****. I remember seeing doors that opened with a wave of the hand and my father took me to Manchester Airport in the North of England to see and play with them for real - that was about 50 years ago.
  • James Kirk
    James Kirk Member
    edited November 2014
    This reply has just made my day....really, what a great read.
  • Bill -VA3WTB
    Bill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    This was a wonderful read for me too, Thank you very much. I hope every one reads this...
  • Gerald-K5SDR
    Gerald-K5SDR FlexRadio Employee ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Oh, my gosh does this bring back the memories!  Steve provided a very accurate description of the birth of the FLEX-6000 Series and SmartSDR.  Very few people outside our company understand the underlying power of the platform our team has built.  
  • Stan VA7NF
    Stan VA7NF Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016

    Thanks Steve, your novel is a good read. 

    Now, about the 7000 series hardware, with plug in Rx/Tx boards, water or PCM cooling and liquid nitrogen superconducting computers, external or internal blades for VLF to Terahertz Rx/Tx, ...

    And then the change of NR to NE (noise Reduction to noise Elimination) with noise signatures, harmonic adaptation, phase adaptations, multi-path adaptations, predictive calculations for all noise in a filter width, comparison against real, noise killing.  That integrated with the GUI, perhaps I want to block all and only listen for sky-to-earth lightning within 100Km to lower the tower and ground all antennae.

    Thanks again Steve.

  • James Whiteway
    edited November 2014
    Stan, you missed one! I want the ability to pick either  single, or multiple signal
    in my passband, (example a jammer or two on SSB) and clicking on them in the panadaptor  and eliminating them! Imagine, having a qso with someone and some LID decides to start talking over you. CLICK! He's gone! Or he gets a buddy or two to jump in as well.........CLICK!! They're gone!!!
    (well, I can dream!!)
    james
    WD5GWY
     
  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Wow! Thanks, Steve. That was some wonderful insight into the process and internal culture at FRS. Now you have me drooling over additional possibilities. It would be interesting, as a teaser to see some of the list of possibilities, even if none of them are currently on any of the developmental road maps. A look at someone else's list often stimulates a bigger list in my own mind. I would imagine that it would be easy for a group like this, combined with your engineering group, to come up with enough good ideas to keep your team busy for the next ten years! Ken - NM9P
  • DrTeeth
    DrTeeth Member ✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Thanks Steve for that. I almost feel guilty by asking the original question, but it was worth it.

    @ James - do you mean the LID's signal has gone or the LID himself has been vapourised? If the latter, it sounds good, hi hi.
  • Bob- W5TX
    Bob- W5TX Member ✭✭
    edited May 2016
    First, a disclaimer. I am Steve's dad and my shirt buttons are popping with pride. I retired from Collins 20 plus years ago and I was fortunate to have spent some one on one time with Art Collins who I believe in his time was a visionary . Having watched remotely, the Flex process since Steve has joined, I see the same kind of future view taking place. I believe that in the tomorrows we will look back and realize that we as users and Flex as innovators are in the midst of a game changing process just like the advent of widespread implementation of SSB some 50 plus years ago. What a great time.
  • DrTeeth
    DrTeeth Member ✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Some people will do anything for a discount, hi hi. Seriously, seems like you have seen some very fascinating things.

    I just hope the software keeps on improving enough so I don't have to splash out on a new rig anytime in the foreseeable future, I had enough trouble getting my 6300 past the XYL, especially having 2 teenage children.

    Best 73 Guy
  • Steve K9ZW
    Steve K9ZW Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016

    Steve N5AC and the FRS Team!

    First what an awesome inspiring story!  "Well done" is such an understatement.

    Second, could I have permission to repost the story part of this thread?  It deserves a wider audience and I'd be happy to carry it on "With Varying Frequency."

    Thank you for the insight into the background of what makes the 6700 and 6300 I've been using the jump forward field use has been confirming!

    73


    Steve

    K9ZW

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