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ATU high SWR software bug

24

Comments

  • Neil D Friedman N3DF
    Neil D Friedman N3DF Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    I have only been a Flex owner for a little over two years.  In that time, I have installed updates from 2.3.7 to 3.1.8.  I don't ever recall seeing advance authoritative "word" as to when a future release of SmartSDR would become available.  Each release has come as a (usually pleasant and sometimes exciting) surprise.  
  • Tim - W4TME
    Tim - W4TME Administrator, FlexRadio Employee admin
    edited February 2020
    Roger,  the answer the the "when" question was provided by Dan above. 

    Engineering is aware of this issue and it will be addressed in a future release. We do not publicly discuss priorities relative to specific issues or release dates and timeframes with respect to future releases.”
  • Ken AG2K
    Ken AG2K Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    This has been an issue I've been waiting for almost 6 months to get fixed. Flex policy is to not comment on any software updates or fixes. The most I've been able to get is that they are working on it.
    This brings up a serious issue. The fact that these are SDR radios means that the software is a major part of the radios operation. I personally purchased the latest version 3.x almost a year ago and because i need to use the ATU I've had to downgrade to 2.4.9. and that version does not provide the features i originally bought the radio for. The radio has been sitting mostly idol for almost 6 mos. because the old version of the software is not what I need.
    I think it is horrible policy that Flex refuses to address obvious defects in their products. I've said that I'm fine with them keeping future features confidential but not making "hot fixes" for defects in their software product available in a timely manner is not customer friendly and potentially dangerous.
     
    I recently was contacted by a user describing how the faulty ATU software caused high SWR that then locked up their internet connection causing the radio to lock in tune mode. As he struggled to fine someone to go to his house to check on this his fire alarm smoke detector went off in his radio room. That dispatched the FD that broke down his door. They found the Radio stuck in transmit mode causing the power supply to overheat creating enough of a smoke condition to set off the alarm. The FD was able to pull plugs and shutdown the transmitter which then allowed the internet connection to come back.. 
    So the lack of Flex addressing these issues (Hot Fixes) is not only inconvenient but potentially become a life safety/ property issue. 
    As others have said if your a Flex owner you have to accept long wait times for both repairs and any defective software fixes. The wait is bad enough but the lack of transparency into availability of software fixes and when we can expect a  hot fix release is a bad company policy. It leaves the customer to question whether Flex has a handle on whether they are overwhelmed and have lost control over the whole product line. 
    Ken
  • Mark NS9N
    Mark NS9N Member ✭✭
    edited March 2020
    Wow although a tragic set of circumstances it highlights an issue that all hams must take into consideration when running any station remotely. Fault conditions are going to happen and we must make sure proper safety fold back or shut down conditions are in place. It took me a long time to “harden” my internet connection again high SWR conditions but I did so and tested it before I went remote. And for sure a power supply must be protected against high current over current conditions. And this is not just short circuit conditions. Many power supply act very different in a over current condition then a short. Sounds like that may have been the case in this event. I too am waiting for the SW update to fix the SWR tuning issue but as a station owner operating remotely, I have stresstested my station to make sure it is as safe as it can be. Yes I know nothing is perfect but without testing you never know. Not doing this is not an excuse. Finally, as a repeater owner I add a circuit that samples the xmit RF. It had a built in timer of 5 minutes. If a keydown lasted over 5 minutes, it shut the power supply down. This is actually a great reminder that I should add this to my remote station to give me even more fault protection and keep me compliant to all our rules and regulations..
  • Neil D Friedman N3DF
    Neil D Friedman N3DF Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    I guess I don't understand.  If my Flex somehow locked in tune mode because of high SWR, couldn't I remotely turn off the radio and/or the power supply?
  • Ken AG2K
    Ken AG2K Member ✭✭
    edited June 2020
    No. Your ability to remote control depends on your network (internet) connection. If that connection fails to reply because it is also locked up because of high SWR you lose the ability to control the radio.

  • Neil D Friedman N3DF
    Neil D Friedman N3DF Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2020
    OK.  High SWR causes household wifi to lockup.  
  • Lionel
    Lionel Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    watchdog timer - good idea.
  • Harold Rosee
    Harold Rosee Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    The real issue here is this defect renders a piece of the hardware in the radio as non-functional.  This is different from a "software only" defect.  It is also a major component of the radio.  It should have been fixed long ago.  Anything short of a fix is just an excuse.  No way to defend Flex on this one.

    I suspect that Flex can not easily pull the change out and put in a release with just this one fix.  It's called poor change control and is typical of the PC world.  I was a mainframe programmer/Manager for over 30 years and we used delta deck controls and could easily pull out a change and publish an emergency release.  The PC guys at our company always worked by the "seat of their pants".  I suspect that is what you are seeing here.

    It is what it is and Flex will continue this way forever.  It's not worth getting upset over.  It's just the downside of owning a Flex.  There are certainly more upside reasons to own a Flex so I can live with it.

    But it still surprises me that since it affects Hardware that they haven't released something.  I doubt they would get away with this on their government contracts.

    Harold
    W5ZZT
  • Mark NS9N
    Mark NS9N Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Hi Harold, sounds like you have done some hardware investigation. Can you please detail what you have found so we can all understand what is going on?
  • Burch - K4QXX
    Burch - K4QXX Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Could you explain this?  How can high SWR **** your internet connection?  Were you getting RF into your router some how that disconnected your internet?  I run remote and sometimes have my PGXL running so I am curious what this issue was as I surely don't won't to have my radio transmitting when I'm not able to stop it.
    
  • Harold Rosee
    Harold Rosee Member ✭✭
    edited April 2020
    Hi Mark,

    No, there is nothing wrong with the hardware.  My point is leaving a piece of the radio that is in the hardware not working is not right.

    I did help in doing some testing for Tim when I first reported the issue many months ago.  We determined that some code was dropped out after 2.4.9.

    I suspect they have corrected the code but don't want to put out a release with just that in it.  It is a lot of work to put out a software release.  No argument there.  A lot of people, like me, don't even use the tuner because we have amps and external tuners after them.  I suspect this is why this issue hasn't received more attention that it has.  If everyone was down I bet they would have fixed it sooner.  I could be wrong but the majority of those who have a Flex radio, or most HF rigs, don't even use the internal tuners.  That said, if I did use it I would be upset.

    I still don't agree with leaving it broken but I personally can like with it.

    Harold
  • Erika - KØDD
    Erika - KØDD Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Harold,  This problem is just like the WINDOWS UPDATE ISSUE....  It's not windows' fault for doing updates, its VSP's fault for update goofing it up.

    and FLEX pointing at Microsoft as the evil problem...

    This bug has done very serious explosions with my computer O/S where I was forced once a couple months ago to format and reinstall my windows 10 pro x64...  Now it just blue screens three times and finally comes back up.  THANK YOU...  The best thing I should do with a very expensive machine is take SSDR and all its defective modules off of it....  I was so frustrated I actually downloaded TODAY  the recommended roll back v2 ****...  and then said NO>>>>  I have enough problems with my machine at this point....

    I point at the VSP developer and their release.  There's something seriously wrong with it as it causes port page faults so windows deletes it eventually.  This once every five day explosion on my computer needing uninstalling VSP and reinstalling it per TIM's response to my comment had me so mad I was spitting nails. so I didn't even respond... What a response?  We told you how to fix it!  NO you told me a **** work around to get my radio back on the air when it vegetates and blue screens my computer..

    Windows is going to constantly update once a week until the cows come home (FOR SLAUGHTER)  An update shouldn't **** the module up EVERY TIME!  THAT means there's something seriously wrong with the VSP module... VSP  needs an update!  

    As far as the TUNER GOES....  I had to buy an external tuner...  and as a test if I leave my tuner slightly out of whack say 1.5:1  the auto tuner will go to 8 million to one...  It won't tune it out. Very seldom will the tuner go to 1:1 with any situation BUT IT WILL !!!!!!  Try 20 times to tune, and eventually it will find the sweet spot via luck.  That tells me the tuning protocol is incorrect.

    I changed the whole way my station is configured to a balanced feed antenna because of the 6500's tuner problem.  I don't have an amplifier... So I am relying ON the internal one or now the manual external one.

    Shoot...  I wouldn't have even SPRUNG for v3...  starting with 3.1.7 for me.  I bought this radio used, paid top dollar... Because at that time there wasn't a gaggle of 6500's all over the internet for sale.  When one popped up I bought it..  It was a version 1 radio and nearby.  I'd have liked to have saved the $2 bills the same day my radio arrived...  I had no idea I was paying big dollars for and installing defective software right out of the box. 

    I was so excited I bought a new radio and before even turning it on the first time I was shoving my credit card in through the front  slot to buy the best for my "New TO Me" Baby  If I even told my hubby what was going on with the defective radio issues and what the company's responses were  he'd totally burst into flames and tell me to rip the thing out.... and get my money back out of it.

    Erika DD
  • W7NIK
    W7NIK Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Wow nice writing skills, I enjoyed that. I also have windows 10 problems . My Ftdi usb devices are not working anymore. If i remove the usb com # then update the driver. 2.28 Ftdi . Then I get a pop up reboot your computer for it to work . I tested the usb connection before the reboot it works great both devices, erc controller and the wavenode sensors. . Reboot I get errors message and the devices do not work anymore. I plan on doing a computer reset now. Why can’t we stay with win 7 ?
  • Chris DL5NAM
    Chris DL5NAM Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    i am using since years W10 and using FTDI USB-cable on 3 PC here in my shack = not one problem with USB or FTDI

    So, maybe you search the problem on the wrong end 

    Chris
  • Tim N9PUZ
    Tim N9PUZ Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    It is always interesting to read the varying amount of problems experienced in supposedly similar systems. I have never had an issue with FTDI USB<->Serial adapters on Windows 10. I've also never had VSP issues since the fix that occurred after last Fall's Win10 update caused so many problems. Perhaps I am just lucky, perhaps I'm just better at following directions.

    I have never been a fan of converters and adapters for permanent connections. On the items where my station needs a serial port I use the genuine hardware RS232 port in the computer or one of the ports I've added via an internal card.

    I too am surprised at how long it is taking to restore a previously well working subsystem of the radio. For whatever reason, the ATU High SWR issue with 3.x.x is not their finest moment.

    Tim N9PUZ
  • Erika - KØDD
    Erika - KØDD Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Its wonderful you don't have any issues. This doesn't mean others are NOT. It doesn't mean RF doesn't get into stations' cabling, it doesn't mean the tuners don't work, it doesn't mean there's not software conflicts on various machines.

    BUT What FIX are you talking about for the VSP port issue?  UNLOADING and Reloading IS NOT a fix.  And which version of win 10 are you referring to?  My machine was a clean install including a brand new SSD as one of the previous explosions left my system drive unbootable.  We're using v1909...the latest. There's been a problem about every 5 days.  You can only remove and reinstall software so many times before something becomes an issue/ unstable...  Its NOW an issue and the computer after only 2 months is going to need a complete reload AGAIN...

    This is a pretty powerful machine...  and I DO run Everything on this box as it is my only windows computer.  From  TURBO TAX, Microsoft OUTLOOK and all of OFFICE 2013 PRO... Internet browser...  The audio was reconfiguring  too with windows defaults...  I had Skype ringing on DAX channels and I flat had to take ECHOLINK off of this machine....

    The last explosion occurred after a security update to OFFICE.  Thats when the page fault thing started and I got the VSP trial period had expired.  All the rest of the times it was just everything stopped working. It looked great...  WSJT-X looked like it was working fine, but nothing would decode...  1/2 the time it's DAX the other half its CAT... DAX usually just needs closed and reopened, other times its close ALL software and attempt a reboot...  The blue screens just started last week.

    I spent 20 years in IT supporting 30 separate business all at the same time with my own consulting firm, The only time I had real headaches was a GOOFY microsoft update to EXCHANGE SERVER 2007 they put out one weekend that caused ALL THE MAIL configurations to delete and turn the mail server into a brick until I spent 1.5 hours reconfiguring what got deconfigured...  Including unloading that update. The thing auto updated with that defective update three times in one week before they said oh **** and took it off the update cycle and actually fixed it.  It was taking out EVERY EXCHANGE SERVER IN THE WORLD.... We're talking 100,000's of them....  The response was SORRY everybody, our bad.....

    Other than the Chinese hacker island stuff from 2008 where they were seriously data mining and we needed to block all the IP's out of china to our system in the firewall... 

    Note: I had the IT contract for a US Senator's reelection campaign and china had an interest in trying break into and **** the brains out of our 16 servers...  Of which all of them had internet access...  PLUS we had 300 remote workstations to the data storage.  SOOOO.

    Two serious headaches in 20 years... The pain lasted only 2 weeks and they were not consecutive weeks.  I've had more issues since buying this radio than I had combined in 20 years spread over 30 businesses. PowerSDR on the FLEX 1500 wasn't an issue at all...

    I just hope they get with the program soon.  But I seriously suspect programmers are way over their heads and have zero clue what to do next.  I'll probably need to pull every app off this machine and bring up a second computer to handle my office stuff.  Every time I was bringing up YOUB TOOB on a browser FT8 stopped decoding. sigh

    Ham Radio goodies:

    SSDR v 3.1.8, WSJT-X v 2.1.2, JTALERT v2.15.9, DDUtil v 4.0.1.09, HRD 6.7.0.262.

    Just don't try to reboot the computer it will blue screen several times... and no matter what make sure if you're going to reboot it make sure SKYPE and OUTLOOK are definitely closed or it will not even come up until VSP is BLASTED out of the way..  double sigh

    Have a nice day, DD
  • W7NIK
    W7NIK Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    As of right now, I am recovering  from the first time i installed win 10 ,  NEVER UPDATE:) like never get off the boat . I will update , then install my drivers, hopefully i get to do a fresh driver install. 
    I do believe the update does some serious re configuring  of IRQ, ftdi com ports something when it re starts . Why does all the devices work before i do a reboot ?  I reboot the computer it's  over. 
     I run PSTrotator, Wavenode, and ERC  rotor controller  they are devices that do not work consistently .  the flex and steppir sda100 work fine. At one time everything worked  accept the  control flex knob , that has always been a issue , maybe a compatibility issues? 

    The comment about direct connection is not practical . the wavenode wn-2 has a Ftdi usb interface  , and the ERC rotor control has  a usb Ftdi interface. 
     The usb relay boards was fixed with a  LAN udp board  it has never failed, IP config ,  I wish i can run everything IP config. 

    Windows 7 worked great , not sure what to do , may Linux running  on raspberry PI , all my  devices  , but the challenge is PST rotator  follows  my radio , switching the  band the  relays switches antennas. 

    nickw7nik@gmail.com 
    to send suggestions  please .
  • WA2SQQ
    WA2SQQ Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020

    I’m sure everyone is aware of the expanding Corona virus situation. While reading about it in this morning’s paper it occurred to me how similar that situation is to all these complaints related to Windows updates related problems.

    Windows is a community-based operating system; it needs to simultaneously support many different software applications, some designed better than others. When hundreds of people got together on a cruise ship, one person eventually infected many others. When Windows is updated it can affect every piece of software in different ways – hopefully in a positive way, but occasionally in negative ways. The problems begin and unfortunately it can spread. But who was to blame?

    Shortly after V2 was released I did experience some of the DAX issues after a Windows update that required a reinstall. I decided to dedicate a PC to my 6500 (an Intel NUC) on which only my radio related software is installed. I’m a bit reluctant to brag, but since doing this I have not had one problem with any MS updates. Oh ya, one additional thing – updates are always done with my 6500 powered off. While its very easy to blame FRS, everyone needs to understand that it is impossible for any amount of testing to simulate every possible hardware / software environment and predict every interaction. Such testing takes time, which limits how many updates you can do. So, the decision is, quantity or quality?






  • Robert-KP4Y
    Robert-KP4Y Member
    edited February 2020
    Hi Tim,

    We had exchanged emails but now that my 6600 will be shipped to Austin, it seems like Dan has taken took over my case. Any change the sudden high SWR and no power issue with my 6600 is related to the firmware issue? I believe it all started when the ATU started to behave weird after installing version 2.61. As an update (Dan is aware of this), the issue seems to be worst with ANT-1. When switched to ANT-2, the SWR seems to match my external Wavenode meter, although there is a constant beep sound as though the SWR is above acceptable levels, and the radio puts out 90W (still some foldback). 

    BTW, as you know, the warranty on my radio expired just a couple weeks ago. Moreover, I'm an extremely busy person who uses this radio sporadically, so it very unlikely that wear and tear, or even misuse since I'm a professional engineer, broke this radio. I'm about to ship this radio at my expense and just hope that I'm not paying for something that Flex **** up!

    PS: I do recognize your excellent customer service and quick turnaround processing my service request.

    73,
    Robert-KP4Y/W4      
  • W7NIK
    W7NIK Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    I  have reset my computer back computer months , loaded the devices, wave node, ERC , streppir all working again . NEVER update , Like the movie Apocalypse  Now , never get off the boat>
  • k3Tim
    k3Tim Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2020
    This so-called s/w bug with ATU has me wondering...  I noticed weeks ago the ATU would tune for less than a second and show low SWR and quit. My conclusion was the SWR was being read before the Xmtr was up to power. Hitting ATU several times would result in an expected result and since ATU has memory game over. At this station it's not much of a concern.

    Tim
  • bobby
    bobby Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Nice thread and the original poster summed it up totally as to what the customer expects. 4 points I have.

    1. My tuner works fine since I downgraded from 2.61 back to 2.49 along with all the previous developed software I made prior to them messing up profiles and the API for multi flex which I dont use.

    2. If you read the original manual with warranties the SOFTWARE IS NOT WARRANTED!

    3. If you paid for an upgrade to version 3 it seems to me if you cannot use your hardware from the radio properly with version 3 you should be able to get a refund and return to version 2 (How long would it take flex to fix that if that was proven to be correct?) I would say you would seen an immediate release addressing it if it was supported legally through channels of consumer protection)

    4. Where is Bill? He always has so many postive things to say about flex and usually lives in denial but has yet to comment on this issue ..... Hmmm....

    As for the Ham who had the issue with the Fire Dept his whole house could have burnt down because of this defect ... sounds legal to me ... since the high swr causes high RF in the shack which causes loss of internet which causes loss of radio control which causes high radio temperatures which causes .... well you know the rest.

    My 6400M I can live with but only on version 2.4.9 and I have lost hope of ever seeing anything better since this is as good as it gets for me.

    Since downgrading I'm actually starting to use my flex again and continuing my custom program development.

    It just boils down to buyer beware and do your research before purchasing a product cause it is not always as it seems to be ... If I purchased to use mine remotely I would have sold it by now most likely but since I did not its a very good radio if you have 5 minutes or so to wait to get on the air and like to tinker with making computers and software work, but for me I like to spend all my time on the radio hobby when I want to talk on the air and the computer stuff I do is a separate hobby that the radio just fits with.

    Enjoy your flex ... I am ...
  • Bill -VA3WTB
    Bill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020
    bobby, since you publicly called me out to comment, I will. I seems many people are interested in my thoughts for some reason.

    You make some good points here, As for the legal issues you mentioned, I can not comment to that as I don't know how all that works. And is the legal issues addressed the same in all countries the radios are sold in.
    Flex is very obligated to address critical issues because people pay for the version they are using I agree. and I feel they feel Flex does feel obligated.

    A couple years ago within 15 minutes of downloading and installing a new version I alerted Flex that the power slider will be set to 100 when SSDR starts up. If you didn't catch it then you would transmit 100w to your amp. With in 4 days Flex released a maintenance update to address the problem. There have been times in the past when Flex has responded fast to certain problems.

    In this case it seems that fixing this tuner problem effects a lot of areas in the radio. It was very easy to break it, but fixing it must be difficult, taking time and lots of testing. I feel this is the reason a fix has not been released long before now. To say Flex does not care or are negligent is a little dramatic and misplaced.

    Also one thing I would like to know is. If a radio locks out in transmit does the timeout feature still work in the radio? Anyone know?
    If it does than I would think it is in the responsibility of the operator to operate the radio correctly by using this feature to protect from locked on transmit damage. Mostly for those using remote. I can not even imagine using remote without using it.

    I don't have the data in front of me but it seems that better than half the owners use remote most of their time, and for many, remote is the only way they can use the radio at all. Very few if any have had problems that will damage their shack or radios. . But anything can happen I suppose.
  • Chris DL5NAM
    Chris DL5NAM Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    >>> I know many people seem interested in my thoughts. <<<

    LOL
  • Bill -VA3WTB
    Bill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    yea, go figure.  lol
  • bobby
    bobby Member ✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Since I dont do remote I never have set the time out lockout since I am always there and can prevent the issue which I never experienced locally except when my very first desk mic I used had the ptt lockdown button on not realizing the cause I just unplugged the mic quickly and it went back to receive. Operating remotely is a whole different animal and one I care not to release from the cage, I wont even leave a washer or dryer run if I am not at the house. Thanks for you comments.
  • Tim - W4TME
    Tim - W4TME Administrator, FlexRadio Employee admin
    edited February 2020
    It is highly unlikely that the sudden high SWR and no power issue with your 6600 is related to the firmware.  SWR issues with the radio by itself (ATU bypassed) on one ANT port is generally a problem with a relay in the RF signal path,
  • Bill -VA3WTB
    Bill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    bobby, I don't use the time out feature either. I only have my radio on while I'm at home. Not because it's dangerus but that is how I operate here.

    Flex radio is known as the remote king in ham radio because it works so well with little effort.
    In the future, if you ever think of using remote from away from the home, just take the proper precautions. It really is very safe.
  • Neil D Friedman N3DF
    Neil D Friedman N3DF Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    I'm still wondering how a high SWR on my 6600M, if I ever had such, would shut down the wifi in my residence?

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