Apache Labs ANAN-200D a competitor?

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How does this thing stack up to the Flex 6000 series?  A real competitor?  It uses the PowerSDR base though.

https://apache-labs.com/al-products/1034/ANAN-200D-HF---6M-100W-ALL-MODE-SDR-TRANSCEIVER.html
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Drax

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Posted 5 years ago

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Walt

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The only single source review I have seen for both the Anan and the Flex is by AB4OJ

http://www.ab4oj.com/test/reports.html

And I think you can try both sets of software in a 'Demo' mode so there should be enough info out there for you to decide what radio you will really like the best - or head to Dayton next month to try them both out on the floor.

Have fun - new radios are always fun.
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W3DCB

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There is NO comparison between the two radios.  There is a reason why it is shown next to a coke can.  The Anan, while it is a nice radio, is more of a hobby grade radio.  Comparing it to Flex signature series is not fair to Anan.  Look at the relays; coil size, etc., of the Flex.  No expense was spared in the design and configuration of the Flex radio.  They are in different leagues...just my opinion.  de W3DCB
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Ernest - W4EG

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Just as I said on my letter to the ARRL review of and the comparison of the ANAN to the Flex-6x00 series radio. 
"Is like comparing a tube radio to a crystal set radio." 
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sky

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W3DCB: Your post is unfair and inaccurate. Just by virtue of your contemptuous remark comparing the competing Anan to a soda can displays you emotional prejudice.  The newer Anan 200D provides serious competition to the 6700 and at a far lower price point.  Competition is good. Very good. It promotes technology development and its evolution while driving prices down.
(Edited)
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Ernest - W4EG

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What planet are you in Sky?

The Anan radios are not even in the same class...

The Anan 200D HPDSR can not even be compared to a Flex-5000 PDSR series radio. Never-the-less compared to the new SmartSDR Flex-6x000 series radio.
 
The Anan is a nice hobby radio.  Finally, the Anan 200D requires aligning the transmit power into a dummy

Be inform when making such a ridiculous statements.

Oh, by the way you misquoted me or perhaps you do not know the difference between a tube or a crystal radio either!
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Steve - KD8QWT

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I actually considered the ANON-100 while I was researching a new SDR.  My first exposure to the ANON radio was at Hamvention last year.  I was underwhelmed with booth, especially after seeing the FRS booth.  Not that I make purchasing decisions based on one's booth, but it did reflect a stark difference in the level of excitement between the two.  I spent countless hours researching my options and lurking in forums and reading reviews.  In the end I decided to stop researching and pull the trigger on the the 6300.  There are a few technical reasons I decided on the 6300, but in the end I felt more comfortable with the history of Flex, their direction, and the level of  support they provide.  Although I've only had the 6300 for less than a week, I'm even more certain I made the right decision.

I'm sure there are others that can provide a detailed point by point technical comparison between the two.  For me, a radio is far more than it's technical specs.
 
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Dave - W6OVP

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>In the end I decided to stop researching and pull the trigger on the the 6300.

Same here.
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Steve N4LQ

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I'm a CW op. QSK is important to me and I understand that the Apache doesn't have it. That's a deal breaker for me. The rest is fluff.
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Lee - N2LEE

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I looked very seriously at the Anan and while PowerSDR has a lot of nice features, what caused me to go for the Flex was a number of issues.

1. Flex as a Company
When I looked at the two companies, I felt Flex was a better long term solution. Their involvement in Government and Commercial business told me a lot about the quality and stability of the products.

2. Hardware
The Anan hardware is very touching and no where near the build quality of the Flex 6000 hardware.
There are a number of reports of crosstalk, RFI and other issues.
In fact some users take the board and build them into a new case with better shielding.
I consider the Anan more a science project than a full developed, plug-in play radio.

There is nothing wrong with this but you need to be more of an experimenter thats all.

3. Software
Some might look at the open source as an advantage and while there is some pluses, in the long run I think Flexes approach of building a business around their software platform made more sense to me.

The Apache Labs model seems to be based on software they do not have any control over. 
This puts them in a precarious situation because as a hardware manufacturer they depend on development from the open source community.

Flex's approach of building their own software that can take advantage of current and future hardware gives them much more stability as a company and in my opinion as a product.

While some have complained about Flex's release cycle, the opposite is true for the Anan. It seems like they not only have patches and bug fixes every week but also firmware updates. I prefer to have a STABLE platform and when features are ready and tested they are released.

4. Development
Powersdr has been around a long time and so it is feature rich. There is no doubt it has a lot to offer and this is a big draw for some users. But, in the long run I believe the software Framework Flex is building will have a much longer lifespan. Even Flex admitted that PowerSDR was getting awkward because of the way features keep getting added and added over time. I also get a sense listening from to the Anan users that they are seeing the same thing.

If you listen to most Anan users the ONE feature they talk about over and over is Pure Signal. Frankly it's an obsession and you would think its the only feature that is important.

So the bottom line is after a lot of research I found the Flex platform to be a more stable long term solution for MY needs.
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Norm - W7CK

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Too bad Powersdr couldn't be used with the 6000 while we were waiting for SmartSDR to be developed.  Not much of a reason to consider it now, but 2 years ago it would have been pretty nice....
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Walt - KZ1F

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Well, first off, it's software, I am not sure a 1GB nic isn't faster than a USB2. The other more beneficial aspect is in the chassis the actual radio is Linux. If they went there (PSDR requiring Linux), I would have bought 2.
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IW7DMH, Enzo

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I preferred the new Flex Signature mostly because they can demodulate signals by itself; this really cut out any latency issues, like already said Steve. Virtually you don't need of a personal computer to get sound from these new rigs. You need only a thin client software like SSDR, and it doesn't need of powerful computers. Also new Flex uses open ethernet protocols so, in the next future, you will use a Flex rig with most of the new Operating Systems. Probably features like NB and NR aren't (in this moment) at the top performance, like in PowerSDR, but this is only a momentary gap.

'73
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Walt - KZ1F

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Well, of course, you are are choir members. The person to talk to about the 200D is the same guy that was berated, belittled, and run out of town on here, who owns a 200D now and was struggling about whether to sell his Flex. Yes, they do appear to talk a lot about the PureSignal, for awhile was big talk on here as well, except the 6000 doesn't have it..... However talking about PureSignal should be viewed sort of with the same lens as discussion about the "FLEX'able Advantage. One, however, is a feature, the other a state of bliss. Hopefully Ed will show up to discuss QSK.

Aside from that though, for those who worship at the alter of Sherwood, they are likely about the same. It is a small, almost irrelevant, distinction whether the computer is the radio or the computer is the control over the radio. By having the computer be the radio, faster chip, more memory, better radio. We already had the conversation about the benefit of having a defined ceiling on capacity.

@Lee, "I consider the Anan more a science project than a full developed, plug-in play radio". FRS has acknowledged 1.5 is their science project. Predistortion filter, it wasn't that long ago it was a theoretical paper with a small proof of concept, now it is part of the radio. Many people have acknowleged their purchase of the Flex was precisely for the science project aspect of it. By definition, just as PSDR was a work in progress (still is by the open source community) so is the 6000 engine. People bought the premise it isn't done growing up yet.  You bought a Mustang, I bought a Challenger. You won't win any arguments trying to say the Challenger sucks, simply say you like Fords and let it go. This shouldn't be a religious war.
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Lee - N2LEE

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Walt, maybe I should have said the hardware is more of a science project.

Also this is not a war, the key is defining how you plan to use a radio and apply the features need to your decision. I outlined my decision making process, that doesn't mean its right for everyone.
(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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Lee, I did not mean to imply you were making it a religious war. There are those on this board that do that though. Someone who buys something else, someone who wants a hard, physical, through it in your suitcase remote head, are somehow misguided. I've seen in print on here Flex 6000 owners that didn't truly love their radios didn't deserve to have them. It is that righteous indignation on the part of some and the silent acquiescence by others that, very much, at times makes this sort of discussion a religious war.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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( I've seen in print on here Flex 6000 owners that didn't truly love their radios didn't deserve to have them.)
That comment was made by a couple members and does not reflect the collective thoughts of most on this site.
Also keep in mind this is a place were Fexers come to discuss.To be sure as soon as people talk about their reasons for buying their Flex they would be called members of a Choir or fan boys. So be it than.
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Walt - KZ1F

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@Bill, there is nothing wrong with liking the Flex. I've never said I disliked it. I do, however, dislike the UI. Before I ordered the 6000 I was told by a FRS employee that the 6000 series, unlike the 1500, 3000, 5000, would not require Microsoft Windows to run. While that is, in a strict technical sense, a true stmt, as delivered by FRS it is patently false. SSDR for Windows strongly implies there will be a SSDR for Mac, or Linux, or Android. In order for that to happen someone will have to do a trademark violation to use SSDR in their product's name. I won't disclose how I know that, suffice it to say I know that. As it happens, I can mitigate the UI problem. Again, some people like Chevy's, some people like Fords. As for the thick client/thin client debate. If you ask a software person, SSDR is also a thick client, just smaller footprint than PSDR. RHR is a thin client. Within the next year, I will put out a thin client for the Flex 6000. Right now I am focusing on a highly portable SSDR. Of course, nothing is more highly portable than a web app that runs in a browser, be it Firefox, Chrome, or even IE.

My point was this. If someone says, I purchased my Flex because:
1) it requires a smaller computational footprint than the prior FRS products.
2) it has a much more robust filter system than the competition.
3) It is made in the USA
4) it has a more sensitive receiver than the competition.
5) It reflects the state of the art for radio technology.
6) It has virtually unlimited potential for a third party UI

those and more like those are all valid technical reasons. If, however, the rationale looks like this:
1) the competition sucks.
2) my flex radio is dreamy
3) I have a distinct advantage dxing because of  Flex perfection
4) I imagine the Flex code has to be beautifully elegant <- I actually heard that on 40 mtrs
5) The employees of FRS are the smartest people ever.

well, I'd expect to hear those comments and rationale from a .... And that is choir-speak. One can't have a rationale conversation with people ascribing to that justification.

You said, "That comment was made by a couple members and does not reflect the collective thoughts of most on this site". I might agree except, as I said, "It is that righteous indignation on the part of some and the silent acquiescence by others that, very much, at times makes this sort of discussion a religious war".

I would very much like to see others challenge the rhetoric and derisiveness of those that engage in that discourse.
(Edited)
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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DRAX

Before you make any decisions, I suggest you might want to read my presentation on SDR-101

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10740053/Modern%20Radio%20SDR-101%20V2.pdf

Basically the ANAN Product is a 2nd Generation FAT Pipe SDR

The Flex 6000 Series is a 3rd Generation Thin Pipe SDR

In my professional opinion, you will likely see in the near future most 2nd Generation SDR products like the ANAN start to migrate to a 3rd Generation SDR Platform..  The difficulty they face for such as migration is that they will have to write software from scratch.. a daunting task as Flex has shown...

The ANAN is not a Direct Competitor for the 6000 series as it clearly serves a very different market.

If you want to save a lot of $ and have time an energy to do a science project yourself, then the ANAN might be what you want. 
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Greg Johnson

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I have to say, I have both in my shack. They both have ups and downs. The Apache qsk is the least of my issues and I operate cw 99%. If I was mandated to only own one, I would choose the one with best audio on weak signals. Both of these rigs are built well. its not quality. Both are unique.

Most flex only operators have been spoon fed misconceptions about the Anan. pure signal and slices are always big buzz words In this hobby. sell what you have. its business.


Greg kc8iir

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Barry N1EU

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Like Greg, I tend to consider the ANAN more of a worthy competitor.  Flex wins on lower latency, quality of construction, and support.  ANAN wins on current software state (e.g. PSDR features, Pure Signal, etc) and price, esp. for dual diversity receivers.  I don't buy the fat/thin pipe difference - OpenHPSDR is actively developing a thin pipe adaptation by inserting a low cost high performance single board dedicated computer (e.g. Jetson TK1) between SDR and PC.

Flex is a more "finished" product than ANAN, stemming from its experimental/open-source roots.  That being said, some folks actually prefer the experimental/open-source experience but most probably don't like that level of tinkering, esp. with computers.

Barry N1EU
(Edited)
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Mark Gottlieb

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The ANAN was very tempting to purchase when I was considering the upgrade from my FLEX 3000.  However, it became a practical decision for me.  For equipment this expensive, I wanted the customer service conncetion that FLEX offered in the USA.  I have had good experience with the folks in Texas whenever I did have a question.  I purchased the FLEX 6300 and have not been disappointed.  
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KY6LA - Howard, Elmer

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@Barry

You are just confirming what I said in that with theJetson board the Anan will be Evolving from a 2nd Gen SDR Fat Pipe into a 3Rd gen Thin Pipe SDR. But clearly it is a work in progress.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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The thin client and thick client is very important. With thin client, in the future Flex will be able to take the Flex places that Anan simply can't follow with thick client. For this reason, and it seems clear Anan knows they are soon hitting a wall. That's why they also see thin client as important for their future. I think this is what may bother me about buying an Anan. In order for upgrades they have to keep building and installing parts, change out boards, make more cases to house things.
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Walt - KZ1F

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@Bill, "With thin client, in the future Flex will be able to take the Flex places that Anan simply can't follow with thick client. For this reason, and it seems clear Anan knows they are soon hitting a wall". Why do you say that? That's a sincere question. I ask because I believe it is just the opposite. If the computer is the radio, the user can add more memory, buy a faster computer with more memory and that provides for expansion for growth and new features. When the memory is in the radio chassis and the software is in the radio chassis, that caps what can be done in the radio chassis. Adding UI changes does not add features to the radio's base functionality.

This is a good thing actually because for FRS to have long term survivability they have to sell more product than release upgrades. Simply put, there needs to be a "7000 series" in their future. I suspect we all want FRS to be healthy and survive, I know I do..
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I say that's because of the direction Flex wants to go in the future and I don't know what all the plans are. The reason they went to SSDR and left PSDR is because PSDR can not be made to do what they want to do. They hit a wall in PSDR as stated by Gerald. Anan is working on a thin client fix, as they know they will need to. SSDR is already thin client.
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Lee - N2LEE

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Walt, the world HAS already moved to thin clients in almost every aspect of computing. Just look at the growth in mobile computing and what can be done with an iPad and a simple app. Just look at the growth in PC sales, they continue to drop as more and people use mobile devices.

I am not a hardware engineer but I would bet the 6000 series has WAY more capability than you are giving it credit.
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Walt - KZ1F

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Lee, I am very familiar with not only the distinction between thin and fat clients but also when that transition in the software industry took place. It occurred before mobile.
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Lee - N2LEE

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@bill Anan is working on a thin client fix, as they know they will need to. SSDR is already thin client.

It is my understanding that the way they are going to achieve this is adding NVIDA CUDA cpu boards and running multiple copies of Powersdr on those boards. Again I am not a hardware engineer but this seems like a hack approach. This is why I keep referring to the Anan as a science project.
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Joe, KQ1Q

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The debate between embedded vs client-side approaches and implications for thick vs thin clients are broader than ham radio. There is a continuing tension in the digital design community between special-purpose embedded processing (DSP, FPGA, etc) vs general-purpose processing via CPU, which in this case means a fat pipe or client. 

The old view is DSP/FPGA hardware is much faster at signal processing than a general-purpose client-side CPU. However recent Intel CPUs can be faster than some DSP or FPGA hardware. This is a result of continual progress in instructions per clock efficiency, higher core counts, and better floating point and vector instructions. E.g, the 3.5Ghz i7-4770K is benchmarked at 182 Linpack GFLOPS if using AVX2 vector instructions. That's nearly 2000x faster than the original Cray-1, and modestly faster than the Virtex-6 FPGA used in the Flex 6000 series. This would seem to drive the design decision toward client-side implementation.

However several offsetting factors justify a server-side, thin(er)-client approach. While new CPUs are fast, older ones are less so. It is very hard to make real-time software run well across a broad range of x86 CPUs with widely varying performance and instruction features. Also general-purpose operating systems are often not well suited to real time applications. Even if the CPU has the computational horsepower it bogs down the entire computer doing that, leaving little left over for logging, email, utilities, or anything else. Finally FPGAs are getting faster and more dense, probably at a quicker rate than CPUs.  Intel is even moving toward integrating an FPGA on some Xeon CPUs: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/184828-intel-unveils-new-xeon-chip-with-integrated-fpga-touts-20x...

In an embedded application the FPGA is a lot less expensive and burns far less power than a general-purpose CPU with similar performance. Admittedly on the client the CPU has already been paid for, but on the server the relative FPGA efficiency enables also using dedicated DSP chips and other hardware to assist the FPGA. It provides a stable, consistent platform to support reliable real-time software.

So despite how fast client-side CPUs have become, a server-side FPGA approach for an real-time embedded solution like SDR seems the best (although not only) path forward. I think FRS made the right decision.
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Barry N1EU

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"It is my understanding that the way they are going to achieve this is adding NVIDA CUDA cpu boards and running multiple copies of Powersdr on those boards. Again I am not a hardware engineer but this seems like a hack approach. This is why I keep referring to the Anan as a science project."

Sorry, maybe I'm wrong, but this description of their software implementation sounds like utter nonsense.  I will check with the developer(s) and report back.

Barry N1EU
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Walt - KZ1F

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That's an interesting prospective Joe. It might even be true, I am the wrong person to ask on a technical side. However, on a business model side that would not be a deciding factor, beyond using it in marketing collateral. Popularized post WWII, don't make things that last long. There is more money to be made selling a slightly better (better to be defined separately) product to the same people over and over and over again. I forgot who it was that first said this, but I do agree, a ham operator will be very stingy on many things, however they will open their checkbooks wide for what they perceive to be a better radio. I would place good money on when FRS announces the 7000, 40% +/- of the 6000 customer base will be ordering it, if for no other reason than the perception their 6700 is now obsolete. It's called planned obsolescence. You see that in cars, household appliances, stereo gear, TV's, commodity computers, boats, golf clubs and, yes, hobby radios. It's called being in business to make (and continue to make) a profit. Companies without a consistent cash flow in excess of burn rate don't survive. Everything else is perception.
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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The platform for the 6000 radios will last many more years yet, they have long range plans for the 6000's. The hardware is able to do much more then it is right now, it's just getting started.
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Joe, KQ1Q

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Walt, I agree companies need to sell new products, and from a business standpoint "planned obsolescence" is often used. However the definition of planned obsolescence is an intentional design effort to *artificially* limit a product's useful useful life in order to produce more revenue from new sales. I don't see that as being an intentional design priority on the Flex 6000 series.

If in fact the 6000 series cannot be upgraded as fully as the 100D, causing a shorter product life, that will become obvious in due time. As it stands now, the 6000 series shipped before the 100D, has been on the market longer, yet it appears the 100D might require major hardware upgrades sooner to remain competitive -- despite the theoretical upgradability advantage of a software-oriented "thick client" approach.

I don't remember the numbers, but I think the FPGAs in both Anan and Flex 6000 have a high % of  unused resources, which indicates they both have a lot of server-side upgradability. I think the Anan series are cool radios, and I'm glad there's more than one company doing leading edge work in this area.
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Walt - KZ1F

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Joe, that is an 'intentional design priority' in likely every company. That's why things have plastic parts, not metal. That's why car engines dropped timing chains to timing belts. Your inference makes it sound evil, nefarious, robber barons, antitrust, no, it is business survival. It's easy enough to check, when did the 3000 intro and when did the 5000 intro. I am not casting aspersions on FRS or any employee or mgmt. They are a company, not a family member, they aren't doing this for good will or peace in the family, they are doing this to earn a living and build an ongoing business. That involves business plans, product life cycles, non-techie stuff. As soon as I made the decision to order a 6000 (since they were still a year prior to production) I bought a 1500 figuring it was likely better than my TS-530SP. If I still had the KT34XA at 20m yeah, the 1500 might have been better but at 5watts no it wasn't. When it comes time to buy a new radio model, it is all perception and then, given your radiator, skill etc, it is likely the new 'better' model is no better. But it doesn't matter because it is all about bragging rights.  It's mind boggling how many people were totally relieved when Rob Sherwood said, technically, the 6000 (5 and 7) were at the top of the heap based on 3rd order numbers). Unless you have those stacked monobanders at 120', the top 10 on the Sherwood list would probably work equally well.
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Barry N1EU

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"Sorry, maybe I'm wrong, but this description of their software implementation sounds like utter nonsense.  I will check with the developer(s) and report back."

Nonsense confirmed.  The SDR server platform isn't even Windows.  No PSDR inside.
(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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what software implementation nonsense are you referring to Barry? Are you talking about the 6000 or the Anon? The SDR server? You mean the 6000 black box? No, no PSDR, it's linux, the actual radio is driven by linux. It communicates to the outside world via TCP and UDP.
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Burt Fisher

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Bill B.: I thought the 5000 was just getting started.
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Barry N1EU

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Walt, you have to click on the "View Previous" to see the nonsense reference.  The software being developed for the Direct Fourier Conversion/Fat Pipe OpenHPSDR architecture is brand new and is not the hacked multiple copies of Powersdr that N2LEE suggested.

Barry N1EU
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Barry N1EU

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Walt, you have to click on the "View Previous" to see the nonsense reference.  The software being developed for the Direct Fourier Conversion/Fat Pipe OpenHPSDR architecture is brand new and is not the hacked multiple copies of Powersdr that N2LEE suggested.

Barry N1EU
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Barry N1EU

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(sorry, I tried to edit my comment and instead ended up with a duplicate post that it won't let me remove)
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Walt - KZ1F

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It's OK Barry. I've done that too, most embarrassing (it was for me). I don't really follow the HPSDR subject. Personally, from a user perspective I think PSDR made more sense. However, from a product life cycle standpoint, the radio is in the box makes FAR more sense which is likely why FRS did it. This is why there are marketing departments, to sell the package.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Walt did you see my question to you?
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W7NGA

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This allegiance to a radio and manufacturer is sophomoric. My Flex 6300 has a beautiful receiver, but I find the transmitter problematic in several areas. Listening on the bands and on several nets, I sometimes cringe when I hear such poorly sounding Flex 6000 series transmitters on AM. Listen to the 20-meter Flex net objectively and be really critical. Yes, there are setup requirements that ameliorate problems, but my listening and comparisons exemplify that the ANAN modulation sounds better .. generally.

I am far more interested in the receiving section and user-interface and therefore made the decision as I did.

dan  W7NGA
San Juan Island, Wa.
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I can't speak to all the check ins on the 20M net. But I talk to several people each weekend with their Flex 6000's and they have some of the finest audio on the ham bands. But they did take the time to get them that way. Most of the Anan's that do sound very good are running a lot of audio gear before the radio, virtual audio also. It all depends how we set them up and EQ them.
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Walt - KZ1F

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I actually like the recieve audio on the 6000 and have received many praises on the quality of my audio when I do operate SSB. I only tried AM once and got politely brushed off, not because of the radio but because I was trying to do AM on 100 W and the group of AMers was saying that I really needed to be pushing power behind the signal as I was sporadically fading into oblivion and just over the noise floor best case. But I don't pretend to be an AM aficionado.
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Steve K9ZW, Elmer

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The ANAN series of radios hasn't caught my interest enough to open my checkbook. 

The Flex-6000 has - and enough to buy two.  (I didn't want to drag a 6700 with me on weekend excursions, so I bought a 6300 to do that).

Greatly respect the teams behind and using both. 

These are co-existing options, neither which is going to threaten the other in the marketplace. 

That many hams have both is a direct reflection that enough product differentiation exists to make both successful.

How either works for a particular ham is more about the ham than the radio.

Here is my personal take and decision making - YMMV and it really should vary:

Overall I do consider the Flex-6000/SmartSDR to be 'leading edge" in full production product, rather than a mixture of "bleeding edge' and cobbled-legacy in the ANAN/PowerSDR+ combination.

I'm also much more comfortable with the 6700/6300 being supported & operational rigs 5 & 10 years from now than the HPSDR/ANAN radios.

Realistically I don't consider myself "techie" enough with enough free-time to really extract what I get from the Flex-6000/SmartSDR from the ANAN/PowerSDR+.

As an added plus the people I've met from FRS are people who I'd like to work with and make me feel comfortable with what I've purchased and that they will get to where they say they are going. 

I've yet to have a chance to meet the ANAN team, which if I had might be a reason to add an ANAN.  Can't say though.

YMMV and never lose sight that if a radio inspires you to enjoy the hobby, then it is by at least my definition "A Good Radio."

73

Steve K9ZW




(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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"How either works for a particular ham is more about the ham than the radio."
"if a radio inspires you to enjoy the hobby, then it is by at least my definition "A Good Radio"
Amen brother! And if there is a technical difference of 1db on the noise floor or 3rd order dynamic range, is anybody going to hear that difference?
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Walt, funny thing, I wrote an article that touched on this subject. People say things and emotions run high as they feel they must justify spending so much money on a radio.
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Steve - KD8QWT

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Justifying a purchase after the fact is a loosing battle, especially in the electronics world.  Buy the best you can afford and enjoy it.  There are many more important things to get emotional over than a radio.
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Andrew Russell

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Cognitive dissonance 101.

Any discretionary purchase like this must have an emotional component the "I want it". I have sometimes found it takes a while to find a car I want enough to pay for over that old one I have.

But when I saw a colleagues' 27inch high resolution monitor I just had to have one too. It looks great with 4 pans.

The Flex products are a better fit for my limited discretionary time. Andrew VK5CV


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Walt - KZ1F

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Totally agree Bill. Frankly, I think I see some of that on here, "me thinks the lady doth protest too much". I think those that vociferously try to justify what is clearly a subjective opinion are rationalizing... Steve, totally agree with that too.
Certainly most people on here don't care about their underlying OS, the computer allows them to surf, email, social media, etc; it's an appliance.  Up until two months ago, it was a livelihood. I realize my chief complaint only resonates with a handful of people on here. As I said, I can mitigate that to a large extent. Would a person content running Microsoft Windows toss SSDR to run what I release? I am not sure I would but, those that aren't happy with a forced uSoft environment or those that want more functionality likely will. The proof of the pudding....
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Greg Johnson

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I think that flex has a nice concept going with the thin client. That is how they manage. The fat client is like the new electric car that has a motor over each wheel that no one understands how it works. Psdr is just not the same. If it was, it would work for existing flex radios. psdr will be replaced most likely with a transmit version of cusdr.

The fat client focuses on a few things thin clients cannot compete with, and thin clients focus on a few things that fat clients cannot do.

Enter the gigabit protocol for fat client, now you have 3 x the information moving in that pipeline. A set of processors that evolve with each new computer purpose. With the addition of the add on computer to take the info from the whole spectrum and put it into a server based network solution protocol will allow the most basic Anan to have 7 open receivers with one dac .

I don't consider these radios to be in competition with each other. They are both different. Enjoy the strengths of each. The software used to write for the fat client is open source and moves much faster. This is why it evolves so fast.

I have never had a unsolicited good audio report from the flex. I have from the cw side.


Greg kc8iir


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Walt - KZ1F

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Really Greg?? What model do you have. On phone I generally get very glowing reports, unsolicited. I use the Heil HM-Pro, use the equalizer settings Ken gave months ago for the PR-40, as I recall. It works great with HM-PRO. I also found that the default gain setting is too low. I generally leave it set at high 70's and I am maybe 8"-10" away from the mic. Ah, I also use processor and hi processor for dx. Except for Navassa and Malawi I find I do exceptionally well with 100w. However, I do exceptionally better with 600W. ;-). The bulk of the audio reports were barefoot. Right now my rotor is frozen at 278 degrees so working Caribbean and Indian Ocean off the side required some extra umpf.
(Edited)
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WA2SQQ

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I’ve owned Toyota’s exclusively since 1976 and I’ve decided that I’d never buy another American vehicle. They’ve been reliable and the customer service has always been 110%. To me GM means “Great Mistake”. Yet, if you ask a GM  owner, they would likely have negative things to say about Japanese vehicles. There is no argument that we will all support and defend the brand we’ve invested in. Ask a Flex owner what they think about the Anan and you know what the answer will be. Also, there is no argument that some of Anan’s features (like NR) work better than Flex’s (for now), and the same can be said about some of Flex’s features. No product will ever satisfy every ham.

Each of us did our homework and decided which works best for what we expect from the radio.  For me the choice was crystal clear. Flex is a US company with an extensive background in state of the art communications products. Their design people are members of our hobby, so they know what we want. The end result is a quality amateur product designed and built by hams – in the US. I can pick up the phone and speak with a real person in the US, or I can post a question here and get responses in almost real time, often 7 days a week. Isn't that what it's all about in the end?

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Walt - KZ1F

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Not brand, model. I am certain Kenwood has a loyal following, not as rabid as here but loyal. So they start with a 530, go to the 830, go to the first solid state successor to the 830, etc etc all the way into the 2000 or 990. Ditto with Yaesu. Actually the 2000 is getting kind of long in the tooth now isn't it? When did the 3000 and 5000 come out? They are discontinued now. I hope you're right Bill, but last I heard FRS has plans out to 2.0. I am sure we'll know a little more in a month. Honest Bill, I believe you are incorrect in your prognostications.

Are you driving the same car you had in 76? Wait, 76? Were you even driving then? hihi
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I think Flex is thinking well beyond V2.0 in the brainstorming meetings, and no we don't hear about them. After v2.0 is when it gets very interesting. Flex will need to tempt us with features that is now only concepts. Steve said that himself. They have a lot up their sleev's, wait and see.
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Walt - KZ1F

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Oh yes indeed Bill. I am sure they have plans for the next 5 years. I just doubt they include the 6000 series. My guess, the 7000 series will be introduced mid 2016-early 2017 with SSDR 3.0. My point was this. While the 6000 series will still work the same as the day before the 7000 intro, 40% of the 6000 series owners will order the 7000 because they will perceive their 6000 as "yesterday's radio" vs. those that are happy with it and won't shell out another $10,000 for it's replacement. The issue is some people's buying decisions based upon perception and bragging rights. And, yes, I am sure the 7000 will be better based on technical in-the-lab merits, not necessarily how it compares to the 6000 at your site.
(Edited)
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Steve W6SDM

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It's important not to get caught up in branding when buying anything.  That's what the marketing folks would like us to do, but we need to evaluate purchases based upon the merits of the product and lot the label on the box. 

On the car analogy, I went from a BMW to a Jeep Wrangler.  The reason:  My BMW didn't like dirt roads.

I think the synergy between the hardware and the software on the Flex makes it the most desirable.  We have the benefit of some really smart people making sure the whole thing works together.
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Lee - N2LEE

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Steve in my opinion it's just, if not more important to buy a Company more than just features. Feature check boxes come and go with ever product release but if the company that is developing the product is going left and you are going right then in the long run it doesn't matter if they have the right number of check boxes.
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Walt - KZ1F

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While I do agree Flex has some very smart people, they don't corner the market on very smart people. Their size presents challenges. That is one of the reasons I expect to see the 7000 sooner rather than later.
(Edited)
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np2g

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Hope the 7000 will be fully functional. And like all computers a quantum leap from one to another.
And yes. There is a very large case of the smarts out there just waiting to be taped
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I have not any information about a Flex 7000, were can I find it.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Still no information on the 7000 radios, can you please send it to me, I'm interested.
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np2g

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Since very few have had both in front of you .There is very little difference except the HPsdr is more mature.


There is a absolute great noise blanker . The latest version is SIFI WOW

There is a absolute great Pure signal function and there is a working Diversity rec far less than the 6700 /


Now I liked the GUI on the flex and when it i s fully functional I will return.

This said it would need a vast improvement on the transmit imd . It would need that 1.5 noise campaign

AND it will have to network better than the Cuda project . Did I say cost less .


To those who say the software is Flex re=run Better look and see what little is left .

I look for CU SDR Another visual event .

For me it is about ME making determinations of what I like and How I set it up not what flex thinks I need

Sum it up They both are fantastic . Which is better if determined tomorrow who knows
(Edited)
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David Decoons wo2x, Elmer

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I've got both the Flex and 200D. As others have stated, I feel the two radios serve different demographics.

The Flex 6000 series advantages

  • Better construction
  • Thin client requirement
  • Easier to set up and get on the air (much less configuration settings than PowerSDR mRX)
  • Factory aligned. Power out is linear from1 to 100 watts
  • Native LAN remote with no third party software
  • Full QSK break-in

Anan 200D Advantages

  • Open source software for those who want to tinker
  • Pure Signal (see comments below)
  • Two ADC's allow multiple rx'ers on two antennas simultaneously
  • Excellent Noise Blanker and NR2

I've found with Pure Signal that you adjust attenuation for the power out you are currently running. If your power out on that band changes, you need to readjust the attenuation. Also, the Anan 200D requires aligning the transmit power into a dummy load and also calibrating the S meter. Even after calibrating the power out, some bands at 50 watts drive are off by as much as 12 watts! Not as linear as the Flex.

I feel the Anan is geared towards the experimenters while the Flex is for people who want a more "plug n play" radio.

SDR Bridge has added a new dimension of operating with the Flex 6000 series with integration to both CW Skimmer and RTTY Skimmer.


It is a good time for SDR enthusiasts :-)

Dave, wo2x


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np2g

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Great info Dave.
I however do say similar construction.

And yes running pure signal does require one to pay attention to details. Defitinely not appliance operator compatibility

For all the dynamic capability of any sdr is fantastic
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Lee, Elmer

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I have a 6300 and a 100D.  I like the 6300.  I ran them shoot off style for close to a year and the only thing I like better about the ANAN is diversity.  Both are strong radios but I find the implementation of PSDR to be very outdated in its approach.  The 6xxx is FAR superior in regard to its ancillary suite of software DDUTIL SDR-Bridge FRStack Writelog etc.  The software designers in the 6xxx series are far more responsive to community suggested improvements in the radio.  Pure signal is certainly at present an ANAN advantage but the 6xxx eventually will implement that as well.  The Flex software's feature set grows at a MUCH more rapid clip than the ANAN stuff and in my opinion given the publication of the API's will in fact become the premier hobbyist radio as well.

Much of the ANAN's hype is just hype.  It has a big FPGA but the software guru's are moving the radio's software/firmware guts off the radio and onto a single board computer which will have a barely adequate data pipe between the radio and this new computer.  If that's the case why do you need a big honkin FPGA?  I can easily see this architecture shift rapidly outgrowing that data pipe's capacity.  So where is the disconnect, how did this happen?  Anan designs hardware with a big expensive FPGA and the software guru's decide they don't like coding FPGA code so they "S" canned the architecture.  This is why it's called an "experimenters radio"  

The radio IMHO is at best a promise.  It's a promise on which a good deal has been delivered but not all that much.  Pretty much it's not much different than the F5K I bought half a dozen years ago.  I've seen 14 receivers "promised"    The 6700 has actually delivered on 8 receivers.  It has no internal tuner and it DEFINITELY needs a tuner.  You are totally at the whim of the hobbyist system developers since ANAN just sells hardware.  If your favorite developer flips a clot into his left main coronary artery your radio just froze in time.  The left main is called the widow maker and that clot just made your radio a widower.  This is the reason the 6xxx series costs more,  You get commercial hardware and commercial software and commercial support.  With the ANAN you get a Yahoo group with a bunch of retired military swinging peckerwoods who are full of wives tales about how to get your radio running and maybe one or two who have a clue.  I speak from experience.  (I can say that since I'm retired military.)  There are actually 2 yahoo groups.  There used to be one till politics and ego's got in the way.  Given this state of affairs you need to be very clear the 4500 you pay to ANAN buys a piece of hardware and nothing more.  I understand there is like one guy in the states who can maybe fix the thing if it blows up, otherwise its a trip to India.  

73  W9OY
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np2g

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Actually you are 90 % incorrect if you wish to support one piece over the other try doing it as ox. Has real feedback real functionality
Real comparisons. Not state of your imagination .
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Lee, Elmer

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What a bizarre comment np2g.

How can I be 90% incorrect?  THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE DADDYO  I have both radios sitting on my desk, I follow all the tech audio feeds and the yahoo groups  I never turn on my ANAN anymore because it's just not a compelling radio to me.  All I have to do is press the ON button and I can't even be bothered to do that.  One more thing the ANAN 100D's fan is insanely noisy
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Lee, as I read your post I was thinking, what are we really saying here. To me this is not really about Flex verses Anan. There is room for both. Each comes from different directions and both are very good radios. The last thing I would want to see is any Anan bashing here, I think it is clear why many of us buy Flex and with very good reasons. But the Anan is fun too.It has a lot of parts that can be replaced with experimental boards, that's what they like. The flex stands on it's own merits very well, lets enjoy both.
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np2g

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Ok . Try to be professional on the analysis. A. very poor comparison. As the 6300 is missing most of the architecture that makes the 6500 or 6700 better

Both of these will make a comparison. And indeed Grow to a fantastic radio

Please remember. It is not a 1500. Or the 3000. Or the 5000 and not the 6300 that has the gusto.

Clarification :
I tried to say that the hpsdr was more mature. Translated it means everything works.

What is there now and what you have to look forward too is the defining issue with what,s better .
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Lee, Elmer

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Bill, I have both.  In fact I have 2 ANAN's the 100D and a 10.  I like them as clearly I have $1500 more invested in ANAN than I do Flex.  I've been running SDR since the 3 board SDR-1000 days.  It should be clear that ANAN/HPSDR is actually an offshoot of Flex, the SDR-1000 version.  I was there for that as well, and bought and built all the boards from TAPR and got that radio going as well.  From that you should discern I have considerable experience in both camps.  If you read the second line it states in bold both are strong radios, and they are.  My point is ANAN sells their radio as if it's a system and it is NOT a system.  It is a piece of hardware unsupported by them from a software point of view, and after all this is a software defined radio so perhaps the software aspect is important.  This is one of the "merits" of the radio which is hardly ever covered.  Another merit is the fact that if a developer decides, he can simply head down a new path leaving your hardware high and dry.  This is precisely what is going on with their "new architecture"   Phil decided he doesn't like coding FPGA and very few interested hams are competent FPGA coders so he wanted to get back to a platform that uses some variant of C.  Using the format of a computer which does all the processing connected to a "radio" modem over a ethernet cable, which is the "new architecture" virtually takes us back to the SDR-1000 topology from more than ten years ago.  This was all well covered in a coupe of team speak sessions

His calculation was he could just squeeze adequate bandwidth to run the radio on a GB ethernet line and he proceeded to perform a proof of concept which did pass the concept.  Sounds rosy doesn't it except what happens when the ADC strength goes up or some feature needs to be added?  Do you now need 1.5 gb of ethernet?  How are you going to get that on a single board computer?  How are you going to get that out of a ANAN radio?  It may all work out but I can easily see a total abandonment of the present platform just based on moores law.  Who's going to write the software for this brave new world of SDR?  I'm a tester for Flex, and the complexity of the software, interactions and bugs soars dramatically as the number of processes goes up.  When you start claiming 14 receiver capability (7 per ADC) and you haven't even written software for more than 2 you are basically lying to people or at best pretending when you claim all this horsepower.  So this is the true state of the HPSDR universe not the imagined unicorn universe of someday np2g likes to push.  When you buy something from ANAN you own a piece of hardware.  If you can write the code great, otherwise if it doesn't exist, pound sand.

That being said PowerSDR_mrx is a very mature piece of software.  It's a much modified version of Flex's PowerSDR.  It is claimed virtually none of the code in PowerSDR_mrx is the same as the PowerSDR from which it sprang.  This may be true but the radio basically behaves exactly like PowerDR and I can't really tell much difference in practical performance compared to my F5K.  Maybe some differences around the edges.  I can buy a F5K for like 1500 on swap QTH.  

I had network trouble setting up my ANAN 10.  The issue was with the subnet wired in the radio.   I needed help so I went to the Yahoo group and was led down 15 dead ends by the "experts" and then summarily dismissed from the group because my "helpers" got pissed their suggestions were not working.  The real problem was their suggestions were ineffective solutions and they failed to understand what was going on, but they felt if they could just yell louder somehow the ineffectiveness would resolve.  One engineer took pity on me and between us we solved the problem in 10 minutes after 2 weeks of being yelled at and then being banned on the "yahoo group".  So much for support.  I also had audio issues with the 100D which I was basically left to solve on my own, which I did.  There is no Dudley WA5QPZ in ANANland. The yahoo group is nothing but a dispenser of free, often wrong advice often worth exactly what you pay for it.    It leads you down the wrong path where you spend hours and hours doing things that are not even close to a solution.  In addition any addition to PowerSDR_mrx I inquired about with the authors of PSDR_mrx, like restoration of a previous macro that worked in PowerSDR was blown off 

So yes by all means let us discuss the merits, ALL THE MERITS.  If we need a list:

1 unstable platform support into the future
2 non existent professional support
3 often destructive amateur support
4 pure signal that requires a lot of screwing around to keep it pure
5 No interest in implementing user requests for software changes

I listen to the ANAN freq and those guys are always disappearing to go tune up the pure signal.  When it works it is astounding in what it brings to SSB legibility but at present it's still a kludge IMHO

You will note the title of this thread.  Is the 200 a competitor?  Unknown by me.  I have worked a ton of DX on both the 100D and 6300 so they are definitely competitive and IMHO either is a better choice than legacy radios so from that understand if you are moving from something like a K3 or a Yaesu I think you will be pleased but if I'm going to buy another SDR I'm buying a 6700 or what ever follows  
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Thank you Lee, well stated....
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Walt - KZ1F

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Lee, tell us what you really think. As for your last paragraph, I believe if you look at shereng.com the K3 is neck and neck with the 6700. What difference does it make what the generation is when, in the lab, they appear virtually identical? I am not advocating purchasing a K3. It's just you and others appear more interesting in the technology used than the performance of it. I do not own a K3, but if I did the reason I would like it is because I plug in the KAT500, I plug in the KPA-500, and I plug in the P-3. Everything works. As I change frequencies on the K3, the linear, tuner, and panadapter know exactly what I just did. That is user friendly. You can't say that about the 6000 series...at all. So if the K-3 works just as well and is truly plug n play, I would be careful about bashing it as "legacy technology".

Not everything sold is consumer grade. I've owned a brand new C-182S and a brand new C-172ME. If I didn't know how to fly, they would have been REALLY expensive bookends. As for your comment about Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom, and Elecraft...they haven't gone out of business yet. My guess is, they won't.  The USB-2 is 48Mbs, compared to 1Gbs. There is over a 20x speed differential between pushing data across a NIC and pushing it across a USB as the 1500, 3000, and 5000 did. I think you are trying too hard to push a position. Me thinks people need to be less emotionally wrapped around their radio decision.
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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It's ok I see what Lee's point really was, it had more to do about moving from a legacy radio to SDR, even as many legacy radio's still perform well.
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Steve - N5AC, VP Engineering / CTO

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N2PG: As the 6300 is missing most of the architecture that makes the 6500 or 6700 better 

As tempting as it is, I'm going to stay mostly out of the larger discussion, but this statement is simply incorrect.  The architecture of the 6300 is identical to the 6500 and 6700.
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Steve - N5AC, VP Engineering / CTO

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N2PG: As the 6300 is missing most of the architecture that makes the 6500 or 6700 better 

As tempting as it is, I'm going to stay mostly out of the larger discussion, but this statement is simply incorrect.  The architecture of the 6300 is identical to the 6500 and 6700.
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np2g

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I might be confused i guess diversity receive In the 6700 is also available in the 6300 and 6500 .



I know one of your stumbling blocks on pre distortion was the manual attenuation function .
This objection has been overcome by the open source guys .

The adaptive pre distortion now has auto attenuation function .
Hands free. Yep.
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Dumb comment NP2G,,Steve just corrected your statement, that's that..lol
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Steve W6SDM

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I looked at the ANAN but just couldn't see myself buying a radio that was blue.  :)
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Walt - KZ1F

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Don't like IBM?
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Walt, are you working on some software,,do I have that right?
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Walt - KZ1F

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Oh Bill, have you not been following me for the last year? I am hurt. This is why I don't have a facebook page, what would I do if nobody showed up? Quick aside, the "don't like IBM?" comment is, in software, Blue == IBM. Well, for those that go back that far.
Yes, Bill, I am. I've been in development and architecture for 43 years. Now my sights are full time on this project. After I figure out how to do a YouTube video, I will introduce it. I was hoping to do that next month in Dayton but it won't be ready in time. Actually, I shouldn't say full time, I did, after all, buy the radio to actually transmit on.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I am just trying to understand this is all, sounds interesting, I would like to know more some time
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Walt - KZ1F

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I gotta ask though Bill, why now? What prompted you to ask?
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I need to talk off here Walt, it will make sense to you
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Walt - KZ1F

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(Edited)
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np2g

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Which is better . It really doesn't matter.
I just got tired of waiting.
So in the next 2 years or so ill just suffer



(Edited)
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David Decoons wo2x, Elmer

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But the receiver passband doesn't line up with my timezone.
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np2g

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But it will display gray line
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Barry N1EU

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I know this thread has just about run its course.  But I just received a rather full explanation of the new OpenHPSDR/ANAN DFC architecture from VK6PH that I wanted to share here. 

73, Barry N1EU

DFC (Direct Fourier Conversion)  
DFC is intended to extent the Fat pipe architecture to the extreme  (‘like drinking from a Water Main!’) in that the entire SDR hardware to PC interface  bandwidth is used. 
 
What is holding back more open source SDR development is the specialised skills necessary to program an FPGA.  If they can eliminate the DSP processing in the FPGA by moving all the DSP  to a Single Board Computer (SBC) or PC then the number of potential programmers who can contribute increases significantly.
 
DFC  effectively directly connects the ADC and DAC to the SBC/PC and all processing is done on the SBC/PC.  The ADC data is immediately applied to a Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) that processes the entire HF spectrum in real time.   Individual receives are generated by selecting the appropriate range of FFT bins.  The number of receivers implemented, and their features, is then solely limited by the SBC/PC processing power. 
 
This architecture is not new – just an alternative approach to the DDC/DUC that virtually every ADC based SDR is currently using, This architecture has been possible since the 1980’s – if you had a Cray supercomputer!  Well today we have the equivalent in GPUs on a low cost Graphics card.
 
With the DFC approach a SBC will have to be 100% dedicated to the SDR task – you will not be running any other code on the board.   However, the required processing power is available via a dedicated, low cost, SBC and in the current development they are using a  sub $200 Nvidia Jetson board.
 
As cheaper/faster SBCs become available these can be upgraded  relatively inexpensively.  The Jetson board, running Linux,  initially simply emulates the openHPSDR protocol so that PowerSDR etc software (running on an Windows PC connected via Ethernet to the Jetson board) can be used directly for development and testing.  This will be extended in the future to become a full server so that a ‘thin pipe’ interface to a tablet/cell phone/PC can be used.
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np2g

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In plain language. Fat or thin it doesn't matter.

The cud aboard is a pretty neat approach

There are a load of smart guys out there not on flex pay.

And we are the beneficiaries of all the developments.
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Joe, KQ1Q

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It appears a major redesign of the Anan was needed to support thin pipe clients.  VK6PH himself calls it a "new SDR architecture", which has currently only reached the proof-of-concept stage.

As part of that redesign, using the Tegra K1 SBC was a good idea since it's very fast and power-efficient. The nVidia CPU it's based on  (code-named Denver) has good CPU and GPU performance at a low cost. Potentially the SBC could be upgraded.

In essence the fat pipe is moved to the radio server and functionality is moved off the FPGA to the Tegra K1 SBC which has an easier software development environment. From a high-level viewpoint, they are moving toward the overall solution FRS decided on years ago, just using a different implementation.

In yet future versions beyond the current proof of concept, this theoretically could allow a thin pipe client if the SBC only forwarded a lower-bandwidth more GUI-oriented data stream. That would also require development of the software protocols for thin pipe communication, unless that's already been done and I missed it.

Whether the actual production Tegra K1 SBC would exist inside a future Anan radio or be housed outside in a separate chassis (possibly for retrofitting current radios) isn't clearly stated.
(Edited)
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Interesting Berry, thanks....
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Walt - KZ1F

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That's outstanding Barry, thanks for sharing!
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Lee, Elmer

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You will note this communication precisely explains what I posted, and addresses none of the short comings.  So I would ask once again why would you buy a radio that is designed opposite from where things are going in the HPSDR world?  What you really need is a SBC with a 4 gb ethernet port and a radio with a 4gb ethernet port a small cheap FPGA to handle things like CW and the biggest honkin ADC's you can afford.  This is exactly what is going to occur to Phil one day and all you ANAN 200 owners are going to be left holding the bag.  

73  W9OY  
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Hey Lee, between you and Walt, I just don't know...lol
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np2g

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Ah a crystal ball approach
Who knows maybe all of us will be holding that bag.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Not likely. SDR is strong these days, and Flex has been around many years. And the 6000's are still developing strong on a secure and great platform. I will hang my hat on that....
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Lee, Elmer

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Bill- it is what it is.  You can buy a radio based on your hatred for Flex and run around in a terrorist mask thinking that's cute, or you can buy a radio who's business model is based in engineering reality and help advance the state of the art.  The thing that cracks me up is this "new architecture" is precisely the architecture Gerald came up with that proceeded to get the ball rolling in the first place, computer <--> radio dongle <--> antenna.   Now it's going to be computer <--> computer <--> radio dongle <--> antenna.  You sure as hell don't need a $4500 radio dongle to make this scheme work

HPSDR was never intended to be a commercial or production enterprise.  It was always intended to be a hobbyist, small boards, wires everywhere, "hey that's interesting let's change direction" kind of proposition.  The ANAN boys did to HPSDR what Genesis did to Flex, basically ripped off their hardware, started production in a foreign country where they couldn't be touched, and hoped to God they could continue to "borrow" the intellectual property, hours of work and risk capital of HPSDR or Flex.  It's not the kind of business model I would sink $4500 into.  To me it's very flimsy, bordering on thievery.  As far as I know only one guy is left coding PowerSDR_mrx, and Warren ain't getting any younger and neither is Phil.  I'm all for hobbyists advancing the state of the art, 100%++  I'm not so much OK for someone ripping off the hardware and then selling it as a bona fide' commercially developed product to hams who aren't quite sure what the heck is going on and ding dongs in terrorist masks.   Doesn't pass my smell test

73  W9OY
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np2g

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I am so glad you are venting.
This was suppose to be a simple comparison. And basically it really doesn't,t matter
It was not intended to give any one room to slam any product . But you surly have issues

Oh yes rip off.s. Did the cart do it or did the horse ?????
Again who cares .

Since only flex can look into their "software ". You really cannot compare I'll bet if you could look you would see very similar events.

So please calm down. Flex or anan doesn't need your defensive help.

It would be nice if you had disclosure before you posted .
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Steve and Gerald started the code for SSDR them selves, it was not taken from anything that was out there before hand. Brand new. So no it has nothing similar to HDSDR other than Flex created the code for that too.
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np2g

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Listen please bill
WHO CARES
All that was asked was which compares Not anything else . Not Defensive or aggressive comments nor the like. (I firmly believe there was no contest implied)

And if you could look at Flex software there would be similarities to just about any software out there. Or visa verse To any .

Again Who cares !!

You are able to listen to 80 Meters in the evening so Listen to them complain that it has been 2 years and still no fully functioning radio .

Again Who cares. For sure They do .

For me While I wait for flex to provide ( And I will reinvest in Flex ). I am having fun with something else that is presently working.(Guess ??? its a QRP radio ???) Nah!! Life is too short for QRP .
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Just keep having fun there. I know of vary few complaining. As far as I know the only thing not completed on the Flex as of now is the noise mitigation and wan
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Lee, Elmer

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Actually as I recall it, Gerald wrote the first software in VB and Bob and Frank added their expertise and then Eric was hired and W5GI came on board.  Then it was about making kits and flipping resistors and IC's in bins and trying to have circuit boards manufactured etc.  It was to me an amazing and creative time.  One day I went to bed with a single loop AGC and the next morning I woke up to a radio with a dual loop added by Phil.  The radio is still like that.  W9GR walked up to the boys at a hamfest and a couple months later we had a brand new incredibly effective speech processor based on his CESSB design.  

As far as Flex giving us what they think we need, in fact they give us what we ask for, and they provide the interfaces and API's so if there is something special you want you can write it yourself.  The system is not closed as you imply. in fact it is supremely customizable.  Last Dayton a vote of users was taken whether to do pre-distortion or remote base first, and the vote was overwhelming for remote base, and so they gave it to us.  It turned out that was a MAJOR undertaking of which I am fully aware since I'm on the Alpha team.  We spent a whole lot of time getting that right.  The result is a guy I know in ZL land bought a 6500 last week and in short time had his 6500 working on 4 different computers in his home.  He was quite tickled with the result.  Personally I find that amazing since it took me 2 weeks and a whole lot of hassle YAHOO GROUP to get my ANAN 10 to be recognized at all by my computer.  There are complaints about DSP so Flex is in the middle of addressing those concerns, and trying to go one better as far as performance.   

As far as calm down, I am deadly calm my friend.  I just don't think you can take having your mask rubbed in SDR reality.  You don't like it when someone stands up and overtly responds to your pot shots.  I reviewed some of your other posts and as far as I can see you are not there to add light to a discussion but politics.  Perhaps I'm wrong and of course that is your right regardless.  If you are here to add light then forgive me.  I'm not quite sure what you mean by disclosure?  The thread went to: not many own both radios, and I happen to own both brands and have extensive experience with both brands and the history of how they developed.  I would hope people find this interesting, insightful and maybe useful in considering a purchase even if you don't.  
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np2g

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I am so glad you know all that ancient history And it also explains your position.
Again Who cares .

And I really don't care about Dayton which do you want Remote or Pure signal.

Remote should have been the very first thing that was provided as it does set what has to come.

If they did this first Then this massive re rite to make it work would not have been necessary .

I wonder how many Pre buyers would have stuck around with a box that the on off button would only work .

AND Yes AND pure signal will not happen with the 6000 So again who cares.

I suggested that you compare the 6700 with any of the ( D ) radios nomenclatures .
This would be a correct match since the diversity ability puts it in an entirely different category

Since the 6300 does not A poor choice . And the listing was for a 200D

WO2X wrote a very fine comparison un biased and direct. (He has Both)

And even his review should be altered as one of the differences was Pure signal Which (Those old useless open source programmers ) made the Attenuation automatic .

You see it really doesn't matter Which is better as both are similar but different.
And in 2 more years who knows ?? I really want Flex on top.

By the way it took me 30 minutes to get this one going You should have called me for help.
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Lee, Elmer

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my ANAN 10 was used and the previous owner had hard set the IP to something undiscoverable by windows.  He was like one of those HPSDR experimenters you know, turn all the knobs to the right kind of guy.  The brainiacs on the yahoo group kept telling me to "change the IP address" which I couldn't do since the radio was undiscoverable and therefore no way to communicate with it.  What I had to do was probe the IP subnet and set that subnet to a IP port in windows and then it worked.  Easy solution once I stopped listening to the ANAN experts   
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np2g

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Well There is a load of right turn guys out there . The ANAN documentation is as vague as Flex HI .
Thank God for DUDDLY And there are a few "ANAN experts out there too"

See all this crap doesn't matter . What does is success ,

So go back to work so that 2 years will be shorter .
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np2g

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By the way I looked at the open source SDR early programs Yes Gerald is there along with Every one else "CONTRIBUTORS" . He did not stand alone .

But even this doesn't matter .IT's Just a clarification .

Open source names the contributors in the programs .

Today Flex code in the 6000 series is all theirs And cu-dos to them.
And Today HPSDR has very little of original code.

two different directions for our enjoyment .
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Greg Johnson

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This will Make everything change. Science and technology in harmony on this design. Owning both means your always cheering for the home team!

Greg kc8iir
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np2g

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YEP a win win
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WA2SQQ

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Barry this is all very interesting, but in the end the progress of the product is only as good as the team behind it. I enjoy my 6500 as it serves the purpose I got it for - to talk with fellow hams. Just as I drive an auto for transportation, whether it's a Toyota or a Corvette, in the end my butt will get there. We are fortunate enough to be able to buy anything we want.i agree that this debate has run its course so let's get on the air and enjoy our hobby!
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EA4GLI - 8P9EH - Salvador

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I find the information provided in this thread very interesting with the exception of some odd entries and some out of place comments.

I really don't find information about these SDR platforms on regular ham radio magazines as pertinent and insightful as some of the things I have read here.

I hope the thread remains open a bit longer.
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Walt - KZ1F

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Really Sal? You hope it remains open? I was kinda wondering why last call hasn't been made yet. "Last Call" is what they do, or did, in bars about 30mins before they'd kick everyone out and lock the doors.

@Bill, were you going to tell me something, ask me something, or discuss something with me?
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Yes I will Walt I have your info here
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EA4GLI - 8P9EH - Salvador

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I actually do Walt. I am learning from the conversation. I filter what I find out of context and try to learn from the rest. For example I find that both Lee and Barry bring interesting information. Plus I think it is great for Flex to get a feel for the understanding the public has of the technology and what is being done in other fronts.
(Edited)
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Walt - KZ1F

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I agree Sal. I just finished an email on that very subject. I don't think referring to a competitive technology or embryonic one is bad, any more than things that might germinate new idea to be incorporated in the existing platform or used as initial features in a future platform. Competition is good, it advances the science, the technology, and the consumer is the primary recipient of it. However, I think I've said all I can on the subject. Believe it or not, I am not into drama or arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. You likely won't hear much from me in the future.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Walt that is interesting. I wonder how many angels can dance on a head of a pin. Maybe we can keep this going another week on that...lol
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Dave - W6OVP

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If everyone stopped posting, this silly thread would go away.  It's way past time to shut it off and make the children go outside and play.
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Burt Fisher

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Hams are quick to NOT practice what they preach. Telling others to not do what they do.

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.