6600 vs FT5000 Receive audio

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Hello,
I would like to get some help with receive audio setup.
I used to yaesu audio and while I am not trying to match audio, I found audio on Yaesu is more readable, more intellegent and less smeared than 6600.
Some signal are pretty strong and I have a hard time to understand them on 6600.
I put few videos, and of course some propagation changes affect the results and not sure iphone catching all aspects of the audio.
Please let me know if it all in my head :)

Setup - Both radio as 2.1khz SSB, DNR on FT5000=4, NR on 6600=12.
IPO on FT5000 is IPO1, Preamp on 6600=8db (I tried with preamp OFF as well, similar results).
FT5000 used Station Monitor speakers, 6600 connected to powered Audioengine5+ stereo speakers. I also tried to swap them-smilar results.
Here are few recordings:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ffFEuFY01ajVk6eNskmutHk09oYxgrzn
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1i3PWrlYIkIusO_Jr0ftldb3-gOtuNw0m
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mO6aw6BczUQdUIYfBfR1gb_sy-LYDCcl

I think 3rd video is more pronounce the difference in readability, however iphone recoding masking most of the noise coming from 6600.

Thanks
Sergey, KN7K
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Sergey Abrikosov

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Posted 4 months ago

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Rick WN2C

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Sergey have you turned on the receive EQ? I would set the receive bandwidth to 2.8 or even 3.0 so as to get the fullness of the audio. Set the AGC-T before you set the NR. DO this by turning off the NR and then sliding (staring at about 60-70) down the AGC-T towards zero. When you hear the background noise chang this is known as the "knee", then turn on the NR at zero and bring it up slowly to a comfortable level of background noise. Doing this most of the hash you normally hear will be gone. The pre-amp you shouldn't need below 20 meters. I normally set mine on when on 40 to zero gain and if it is really noisy like when there is lightning to minus 8. Hope this helps.
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Sergey Abrikosov

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Rick,

Thanks for reply and suggestions.

I did AGC-t before and after NR with no significant difference in final audio,

Increasing bandwidth from 2.1 to 2.8 or 3khz adding harsh noise and adding NR at this point degradate audio quality if pushed too much. If NR is ON and agjusyed a little (let’s say below 20, it does not reduce noise much).

Sergey, Kn7k

Edit: I choose preamp 8db to more or less much IPO1 setting of ft5000 preamp.
I can do another video with preamp off on both radios.
(Edited)
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Sergey, R5AU

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Sergey, I wanna to say in the 3rd video propagation was slightly variable during switching between radios, and on my side like Rick said already AF characteristics are different between radios. BTW you should get similar performance on 6600 without NR.
P.S. I am owner of the 6700 but I think should be not so different in such kind of testings with 6600.
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Sergey Abrikosov

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Thanks Sergey,
I do not hear that iPhone catching the difference that I hear.
Yes, as I said earlier propagation is up and down, but overall yaesu produce more punch and easier understandable audio.
I am not sure how to demonstrate it, I can record another video without preamps but it seems like 6600 need another dsp/equalized audio processing.
I am thinking to get
https://www.bhi-ltd.com/noise-cancell...
but was looking for some advice here to see if I miss any settings.
Thanks
Sergey, Kn7k
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Johan / SE3X

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Not sure you will be able to use the BHI? That unit is designed to be used with, I quote " Use with your own passive speakers " . Flex uses active speakers, so not sure if they are compatibel? I have used a BHI unit on a previous transceiver (TS-570 Kenwood) and it worked UFB. BHI makes great DSP eq. that's for sure.
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Sergey Abrikosov

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You can use BHi with headphone output to powered speakers or headphones.
Sergey, Kn7k
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Johan / SE3X

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Ok, then I have learnt something today again, Tnx and good luck Sergey
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Sergey Abrikosov

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One more video with Preamp off on both radios.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1v521wVjvfebEGS15nsU_7R2mm8QvfXth
Bandwith the same 2.1khz.
Also see TNF effect on 6600 and DNF on Yaesu.
Well, i do not want to get to TNF discution I just wanted to demonstate both radios intelligence to get readable SSB signal, or it could be my uneducated Flex settings.
Regards
Sergey, KN7K
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KF4HR

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While you have both rigs set to the same 2.1khz bandwidth setting, from what I could tell from the video it looks like you have your Flex RX EQ peaked at 1k and all other audio frequencies attenuated, some audio frequencies considerably attenuated.  Your Yaesu's audio pass band settings may be providing boost, or a consistent flat audio response, to the lower and higher audio frequencies.
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Jay / NO5J

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Sergey

Not to further continue a discussion about TNF filters. but I never saw you enable the TNF you placed in the passband. the enable button is at the lower edge of the SmartSDR window frame, just to the left of the CWX enable button.

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Jon, EA2OT

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I would sugest to turn off the NR on the Flex, you will notice a big improvement. NR is not working very well in my opinion.
Best regards,
Jon, EA2OT
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Sergey Abrikosov

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I tried, too much band hiss/noise is present in this case.
Also, it does not help much to get a signal close to yaesu quality. As I said it somehow smeared signal and not easy to understand unless it is very loud.
Maybe I have to train my ears on Flex ;)
Sergey, Kn7k
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Paul

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Hi Sergey, I think the differences are not "in your head". I have an FTdx5000 and also find that the receive audio quality (with noise reduction on) is clearer than my 6500 with NR switched on and AGCT optimised. The differences are much less with all noise abatement turned off.

I recall though, that the Yaesu DNR was fairly poor when the radio was new. Yaseu improved it significantly with a firmware update.

If you search this forum, you will see that the performance of the 6x00 series noise reduction has been discussed at length. I'm not sure whether Flex have improved this via any of their soft/firmware updates.
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Rick WN2C

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Sergey, I could hear the filter on the 5000 but on the Flex you need to activate the filter. It will turn yellow when active.
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Sergey Abrikosov

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Hi Rick,
What filter?
I do not have any audio enhancements turned on on yaesu, all defaults. Unless I do not know what filter are we talking about?
Please clarify.
Thanks
Sergey, Kn7k
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Sergey, it sounds like you have tried everything myself and others have mentioned to you and you still can't get good results. As you know the Flex is known for great RX audio. You may need to put in a help desk support to find out what is wrong.

But you have not been clear if you have the RX EQ off and all DSP filters are off?
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Sergey, R5AU

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Sergey, many of the posts are above demonstrate how the humans recognized different audio shading producing by different signal sources. For clear experiment purpose better to catch the signal from the linear stage of both receivers to similar end AF amplifier stage with similar type of the speakers + look into the signal over any Audio analyzing SW like Adobe Audition where we can see how both signal shaded with back noises or has different equalization forms. Harmonization of the different factors: AFC-T+ AF gain+ filters sharp+ AGC delay ( I suggest Flex radio required precise AGC delay adjustments)+ correct NR level( if needed) will give absolutely different results - from the extremely bad to the good applicable. With summ I wanna to say SDR enthusiasts can burn signal from the scratch with personal priorities . I did isuch experiments many time some time getting Wow
(Edited)
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Sergey, R5AU

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Post above incompletely published (, add on here(as beginning after
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Sergey, R5AU

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oups , from mobile device i can't completed my post (, full here, sorry guys for mistake

Sergey, many of the posts are above demonstrate how the humans recognized different audio shading producing by different signal sources. For clear experiment purpose better to catch the signal from the linear stage of both receivers to similar end AF amplifier stage with similar type of the speakers + look into the signal over any Audio analyzing SW like Adobe Audition where we can see how both signal shaded with back noises or has different equalization forms. Harmonization of the different factors: AFC-T+ AF gain+ filters sharp+ AGC delay ( I suggest Flex radio required precise AGC delay adjustments)+ correct NR level( if needed) will give absolutely different results - from the extremely bad to the good applicable. With summ I wanna to say SDR enthusiasts can burn signal from the scratch with personal priorities . I did isuch experiments many time some time getting Wow
As example : my priority is to have more AF gain and more wide range of the signal levels after AGC loop ( means I keep noise level then AGC-T adjusted like +10-12 dB over band noise condition)+ equalization with more gain level within 500-1500 hz ( for contesting purpose, ESSB is completely different matter) 
all my filters are always with high sharp slopes ( brick wall ) 
As result I got easy signal recognition over noise mask. 
BTW important to know - enough senvivity is one of major factor for right DDC receiver performance - keep min +10db noise level up on you Pan in case antenna connected in compare RX input grounded. Just IMHO here but tested.
(Edited)
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Sergey Abrikosov

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Sergey, I understand the point and agree completely.
Remember, I do not post video to compare radios, I am trying to show that signal on Yaesu is easier to read, less noise and more punch.
All I want is to get some help for the best settings on 6600 to get great audio without constant adjusments.

I read a lot about AGC-T adjustments on the forum and while I think I understand the concept, I thinik AGC should be automated ( it is also discussed many times) and user should not mess with that.
All I do on Yaesu is set it up for Fast for contest and Slow for every day use.
There are many arguments here about it, but I think this is not experimantal analyzer that user should be messed with (talking about AGC).
There are many users without techical background and Knee concept could be misleading for many.
I asked in another post about that knee:
1. how do you know if knee is wide or sharp?
2. how do you know if you are on the top of the knee, in the middle, in the bottom or competely passed the knee? By dropping signal strenght when reducing AGC-T you can end somewhere and your only indication is a noise level (in this case you could be on the bottom of the knee and AGC will not work or will not work properly). And you may need constanlty readjust it in case of a week or strong signal.

AGC-T discusion is relevant to this post by some degree but I do not  want this thread will go to another AGC adjustment thread. I am just looking for tips to make audio easy readable.
Thanks
Sergey, KN7K
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I would open a help ticket as I said before,,you are not happy with the receiver performance, that tells me something is wrong. You Flex should be as good or better then the other radio. Your Flex is a direct sampling radio that should perform much higher then your other radio.

You are really over thinking the AGC-t. It really is not as hard to set as you think.
The AGC-t is a remarkable tool.

Set the AGC-t so you can begin to hear the noise go down, then you can still move it a little more to reduce more noise if you need. That's it,,not complicated.
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Sergey Abrikosov

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Thanks Bill, I may open the ticket.
Did you hear a difference in last recorded file or it is just me "not happy :)"?
It is not that I am not happy, I just used Yaesu for many years starting with 1000,1000MP,1000MV, 5000MPDX and I always liked the audio quality.
It could be my ears just used to a Yaesu signature.
In the other hand I am really strugling is to understand the weak SSB signal, while on Yaesu is easier to listen.
Sergey, KN7K
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Everyone should know bye now that the noise mitigation in SSDR is not one of the best, yet WNB is wonderful.
If you are wanting clear audio, turn OFF the NB. You should not need to it. Use the AGC-T to your advantage, it is a very powerful tool. If you play with it and find the sweet spot you will notice the harshness and hiss go away. Right now you have so many things set poorly not to mention poor RX EQ settings. Start with the EQ off as well.
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Sergey Abrikosov

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Bill, what so many things you found I set poorly?
AGC-t was adjusted, RX EQ set to boost human voice, NR set to min to mask a noise.
Please share your settings.
I also found (probably a personal preference) that some guys suggest to use NR and some not.

Thanks
Sergey, Kn7k
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Turn off EX EQ and use the AGC-T to control the noise, Turn off NR
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Doug

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I have a complete FT5000D station maybe you & I could do some trading. I also have the DMU2000 unit all bought new from HRO by myself.
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Sergey Abrikosov

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Heu Doug,
I do not need another FT5000, in fact In can sell you my FT5000MPDX with MTU's :)
Well, after i figure out Flex.
Sergey, KN7K
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Sergey Abrikosov

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Well, here is another video (no video, audio recorerded as iphone placed in front of Speaker).
In that video:
1. I use the same Speakers Audioengine A5+
They have 2 inputs, so both radios connected in the same time
2. On 6600 NR is OFF, RX EQ is OFF, WNB is OFF
3. Both radios at 2.1khz SSB
4. Both radios on slow AGS.
6. 6600 AGC-t adjusted before making video.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eq6hDovX52eQstgnQHrtlRXrdIgrwrPN

Sergey, KN7K
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Robert Lonn

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OK, so I am just now watching this post!!!!  I have several radios to compare my Flex 6600M radio to, in the Yaesu world it is a FT-1000MP Mark V radio,, Yaesu FT-991, Icom IC-9100, Drake R8B, JRC NRD-545 radio..  Listening to your recording, YES, the Flex does not sound correct?? Something is definitely not correct with the settings, or something is wrong with the radio... My 6600M beats all the above mentioned radios with Audio Quality.. 

One thing I would try is do a Full Factory Reset, and return all settings to DEFAULT to see how it sounds!!  

Robert
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Jay / NO5J

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I agree with Robert, something was set wrong on the Flex, it sounded pretty awful.

But without video, I can't see what it is. 

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Ken - NM9P, Elmer

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Sergey, I didn't see anyone else giving these exact points, but you might try this.

With the Flex 2.1 KHz filoter, the audio range is from 100-2200 Hz.  This is indeed pretty narrow, especially if your filter skirts are set to "Sharp."  I don't know if the Yaesu filters are set to the same sharpness and Hi & Lo Cut frequencies.

I would recommend manually moving the Hi & Low Cut up to 200-2300,  250-2350, or 300-2400 Hz.  Either of those three combinations will still give you a 2.1 KHz filter, but shifted a little up in frequency, which will help your intelligibility.  

I also recommend you might try using MED for AGC instead of SLOW.  The Flex Slow is a bit long for rapidly fluctuating signals.

Before you turn any NR on, I would recommend adjusting the AGC-T until you get just a little noise reduction - the top end of the knee.  THEN turn the NR on.  I would recommend using no more than 10-15 on the NR setting at first.

Then if you need some additional clarity, insert the RX EQ and have all levels at 0 except for about 3 notches  boost at 500, 1K & 2K.  (adjust as your preference requires - I tend to use 4, 3 & 5 for those slides in extreme cases, but my old ears sometimes need a little extra help on the "super-Bass" stations)   

If you wish, you can also drop the 63, 125, & 8K sliders all the way to the bottom.

See if this helps.  

Ken - NM9P
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I can't view it
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Bill -VA3WTB

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It sounds good to me,, but i would roll the AGC-T back a bit more to cut down the hiss then turn the volume up a bit

Did your radio need the update to the heat sinks?
(Edited)
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Sergey Abrikosov

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no, my radio shipped in June, should be good.
Sergey, KN7K
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Jay / NO5J

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Sergey

The AGC-T setting I normally end up with is about 10% lower usually, but it's never a level I just set to a value and forget. With SSB I prefer AGC set medium as a starting point. I set my final threshold by ear, mostly, by adjusting both the AGC-T level, and the slice AF level trying to optimize it as I go. I tweak the setting with My FlexControl when using SmartSDR, or with the Slice AF/AGC-T knobs when using Maestro, although the FlexControl can be used with either.

The explanation below is not to be used to balance out the levels heard in a round table SSB ragchew,  for that you need to concentrate more on achieving a balanced
level. 

But this works well when when you want to hear the weak ones and not listen to the band noise.

I listen to the signal, if I hear any band noise in what I'm hearing I reduce the AGC-T level until I hear It start to drop out a little, then adjust the Slice AF level up until I hear the band noise about as loud as I started out with. Then I further reduce the AGC-T level until the band noise is almost entirely gone, and then raise the Slice AF until I hear it again. then repeat that until I hear no band noise at all and have the AGC-T level set as low as I can get it and still have loud Slice Audio. Then later as I'm working the signal and start hearing band noise I drop the AGC-T level 1-2%.

Just my opinion here, but I think the manuals correctly stated method for adjusting the AGC-T level, is just a starting point, that there's still further optimization available.  In my experience that will result in lower AGC-T levels and slightly higher AF Slice levels.

To summarize a little, reduce or eliminate the band noise by lowering the AGC-T level until you not hearing it. then when you reduce the Slice AF level to something comfortable to listen to, you should hear a lot less, or even no band noise.


My goal is to keep the AGC-T set just above the Noise floor, and when you can hear the band noise your down in the noise floor. so keep lowering it, until your not down in the noise floor.


After this optimization I play around with the RX EQ trying to smooth out the audio by removing any boominess or crunchiness I'm hearing in the transmitted audio.

As Ken has pointed out if your Receive passband is 200 Hz to 2900 Hz then you can set the 63, 125 , 4k, and  8k, EQ sliders to 0 dB, none of those frequencies are present in your Slice Audio, although the 4k slider will have an audible affect on the 2k to 2.9k portion of your slice audio. mostly a Tinny/Hissy effect though. so be stingy with the 4k slider. the others you can even try cutting to -10dB. So the only RX EQ sliders worth playing with will be 250,500,1k,2k, and once in a while 4k.

You will always be at the mercy of how the other guy has his transmit audio setup too, you can't really fix anything that's wrong with his audio much at all.
 

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Sergey Abrikosov

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Jay,
I understand what are you doing, but I think you just reduce AGC to the level that is not working properly or not working at all.
I tried to adjust it your way.
It is OK on the weak signals and than when you hit loud station and you may get very uncomfortable high signal level, meaning your AGC is not working properly.
It seems like you use AF and AGC to reduce the noise and get comfortable audio level, but where is the Autoamatic Gain Control in such approach?
Sergey, KN7K
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Jay, I have been trying your way of setting the AGC-T and slice audio.
I am very surprised with the results.
I started with the slice audio at half scale and the AGC-T at just above the knee. As I slightly turned up the slice audio I lowered the AGC-T a little, I went back and forth and the AGC-T ended up almost at the bottom with no background noise. And I can still hear weak stations. It they are in the noise floor I can raise the AGC-T a bit to hear them.

But what is interesting is I can't get this setting any other way. For instance, I can't just set the slice audio at full and lower the AGC-T till the noise is gone,,at that point weak stations can not be heard,,BUT using the method we are talking about I can.

I don't understand what is going on under hood that makes this work. The AGC-T must be linked to the slice audio and effect each other, But not the main volume control at the top right corner.

This method works really well.
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Jay / NO5J

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Bill

The idea is, set the slice volume higher than you normally listen to it.by about 5%. Then lower the AGC-T percentage a few percent, if it reduces the noise. if it doesn't it's either already to low or very close to where it needs to be, you don't want the AGC-T level setting to be amplifying any of the noise floor, because it will do that. I use the AGC-T level as a way of setting how deep or how close to the noise floor I'm intending for the AGC audio boost to begin happening. IOW using it this way my goal is noise reduction, I'm trying to eliminate the noise in the slice audio. 

I don't use the AGC-T function to limit the loudness of the slice audio, for that I use one of the many Volume controls. If a loud signal is louder than I can stand then I turn down the Slice AF, till that signal is just a little louder than I'd like it to be. That will cause the weakest signal in the group to also be reduced, but I then try compensating for that by slightly raising the AGC-T level to add more of a boost to that signal. IOW if it's too loud lower the volume controls.

A better setting might be only a few percent away. but you have to try reducing or increasing the setting while listening to it. I don't sit and ride the AGC-T control all day, but I do end up tweaking AGC-T more than anything else. 

I find the NR helpful at times, but mostly I avoid it. The smearing effect gets worse the higher you set the NR level setting. if I set it higher than about 15% it distorts the audio too much. I use it when it helps me to copy a signal but leave it off 98% of the time.

SmartSDR is very adjustable, with or without knobs.

Good receive audio requires adjustment, As does Bad receive audio. It's up tp the Operator to operate the radio so that it sounds right to that operator. The more you operate the better you get at operating your way correctly. It will become second nature soon enough.

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Bill -VA3WTB

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Ok so, I was doing it wrong?
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Jay / NO5J

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Bill

Nope, there is no "right" way, there are a lot of ways though. 
I tweak until I get the desired result, then try and remember how I got the desired result.

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Andy - KU7T

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The main issue I see is that tweaking often is not really desired for many use cases (contesting). We really need a way to set and forget for a band/antenna configuration. Setting just to or below the knee is working for me. Not sure why you want to remove all noise....

73
Andy
KU7T
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Neal Pollack, N6YFM

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Hmm.  Interesting thread.  It would be nice to have the low band noise *AND* also nice to have normal
working AGC so that a "loud one" does not blast the headphones off of my head like Heavy Metal Rock
band.    BUT, that said, I would be SO VERY happy to use this method to eliminate band noise, that if I need
to put an external audio limiter in path with external speaker/headphone, I will do it.   Really.
So I will try this method tonight.   Jay, thanks for sharing the idea.

Flex needs to work on the noise reduction vs. AGC capability.   But I am loving the new radio so much,
that if I need to use external add-on's until Flex gets around to the software fixes, I will.

Cheers,

Neal
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Jay / NO5J

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Neal

SmartSDR's AGC-T, is not a normal AGC, it's better at boosting signals, and not as capable of leveling the differences between different received TX levels. so you do have to remember that shack audio levels are controlled with a volume knob. I've also been thinking hard about adding an external limiter in the audio chain. I'm just not convinced that's going to improve things. It's all software, and subject to change. this discussion might help encourage some of the changes. I'd prefer to keep the adjustability, and also like to have the option of an automatic setting, I really want both. I'll continue to work with whatever we get though.   

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Jay / NO5J

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Andy

I'm not trying to remove all of the noise, from the audio. I just don't see any point in boosting any of it in the AGC stage of the audio signal chain. There's always noise. If I was (contesting) I'd skip all of this, I'd just ignore the noise. And yes, the official recommended way to set the threshold is usually enough.

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Bill -VA3WTB

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Don't misunderstand us,,the AGC works very well on the Flex,,you will not have a strong signal blow you away when listening to a weak one, if things are set properly.

And... it is not needed to re adjust the AGC-T unless conditions change on the band, so no need to continue moving it during a QSO
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W7NGA

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Egad ... I am no genius but I do have a MSEE from Stanford and for goodness sakes, set AGC-T to 50% and listen to the damn demodulation. It shouldn’t take a Ph.d or Rosetta Stone to listen to the ham bands. And if it does .. something Is terribly wrong.

W7NGA
Florence, Italy (vacation)