With the New Flex-6400, Flex-6400M, Flex-6600 and Flex-6600M moving from Prototype to Production, is this an opportunity to upgrade the radio's connectors to higher performance connectors?
Seems a great window of opportunity to upgrade connectivity in the physical sense!
73
Steve
K9ZW
- MICROPHONE The show models had 1/8 inch microphone jacks which seems to be a move downwards from the 1/4 inch and for some models XLR. Should a combo 1/4/XLR be retained?
- POWER PowerPoles are not the best power connectors, mostly because they will separate at any tug on the wires unless special precautions are taken. Is it a time to upgrade to the CliffCon 4-pole (like what radios such as a the Hilberling use - see my article at http://k9zw.wordpress.com posting on May 30th)?
- ANTENNA The ubiquity of the UHF connector is not the same things as best choice - could N-Connectors (or an option to have them factory installed) be the right choice?
- ETHERNET As there are several strong reasons to isolate the radio electrically at the Ethernet port, could an Optical Ethernet port be provided?
- GROUND The prototypes show a simple screw for grounding attachment - as nothing is more fun that chasing a dropped machine screen or nut, could a robust clamping (with all parts retained) clip be provided?
Seems a great window of opportunity to upgrade connectivity in the physical sense!
73
Steve
K9ZW
Steve K9ZW, Elmer
Posted 2 years ago
This close to the rollout, 3-4 months - I suspect they have all of the physical matters pretty well settled, parts ordered, I wouldn't be too surprised if the PC boards are ready to roll.
I guess the solace is that no matter what is on it, someone will be upset.
Anyhow, a direct conversation with Flex might get a direct answer. A grounding screw might be addressed, but the rest of the desired changes would almost certainly delay rollout pretty significantly, and just upset a different group of people.
I guess the solace is that no matter what is on it, someone will be upset.
Anyhow, a direct conversation with Flex might get a direct answer. A grounding screw might be addressed, but the rest of the desired changes would almost certainly delay rollout pretty significantly, and just upset a different group of people.
Also, in order to add all this, the price of the radio will increase. This is not what Flex wants to happen. The radios were made for a very competitive price point. I think Tim addressed the mic plug and mentioned even the cost of the plug and the man hours to install is above budget. Everything has been carefully worked out.
Steve K9ZW, Elmer
Hi Bill - I missed Tim's discussion - can you point me to it?
The incremental retail costs above the selected connectors are pretty light, and in cases like the UHF/N swap the components are physically compatible.
In my case charge me the little bit more for a better product if they have to!
Would be worth it to me.
73
Steve K9ZW
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
Most hams think the almighty PL259/SO239 is "better" at HF and they see no reason to change. Even well respected people like W8JI say that it's better.
My reason for using Ns was the availability of NOS Andrew connectors on hardline. However when working with them I found them to have numerous other mechanical and electrical advantages.
Ria
My reason for using Ns was the availability of NOS Andrew connectors on hardline. However when working with them I found them to have numerous other mechanical and electrical advantages.
Ria
Steve K9ZW, Elmer
I needed no additional reason other than how an N-connector maintains electrical continuity for both shield and core when the barrel is not tightened down, something that is hit & miss with the UHF PL259/SO239 pair to prefer N-Connectors.
The lesser impedance bump is most likely not going to be heard, but anything that can "smooth" things out makes later TDR work more accurate.
We shouldn't forget that there are a lot of different grades of PL259/SO239 connectors, many not made very well. Some are quite easy to smoke at QRO.
I've had minimal feedline problems and tower/remote connector problems since standardizing my shacks on N-Connectors.
I also have all N-Connectors on all the hardline. Antenna Switches, Baluns and the like have all been ordered or retrofitted with N-Connectors.
73
Steve K9ZW
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
When you have W3LPL and K3LR saying that PL259 connectors are great, the whole ham crowd shouts, "amen!" What's more is that they don't even solder it the way the mfg intended. They use a whole different method that adds to the impedance bump but they claim is more mechanically sound.
In my contest club I was pretty much chastised for using N connectors.
So I wouldn't even try. Most hams would just stick an adapter on it, and complain.
For HF it makes almost no difference. Even up to 70cm you can live with it.
Ria
In my contest club I was pretty much chastised for using N connectors.
So I wouldn't even try. Most hams would just stick an adapter on it, and complain.
For HF it makes almost no difference. Even up to 70cm you can live with it.
Ria
(Edited)
Your contest club sounds "fun". It does make a difference (even ignoring the impedance consistency and advantages outdoors with weatherproofing and other such things that won't matter much at HF for indoor connectors), you get a reliable connection every time. A well attached Amphenol pl259 mated properly to a respective high quality so239 isn't going to differ significantly in performance on HF from a type n setup, but a type n setup will always be consistent with less attention paid to mating. Also, I really dislike pl259 connectors with braided cable like bury flex or lmr400 uf. Type n is so much easier to work with.
If nobody tries, nothing will change. I don't want everything to be using pl259 twenty years from now; there are plenty of better alternatives.
If nobody tries, nothing will change. I don't want everything to be using pl259 twenty years from now; there are plenty of better alternatives.
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
Contesters don't really like change. The mindset is that if it works, it works, leave it alone. I don't really care what someone else uses but N has worked so far for me, and reading with the TDR it is easier to see an actual fault down the line vs a PL259. But where I use PL259 I use the amphenol 83-1SP and heat shrink the joint. The PL259 is very poor at strain relief, one of my main complaints. I could use the K3LR method but it produces a nasty impedance bump, worse than a regular PL259 connection.
The idea is to have some choice, rather than being stuck with the PL.
Ria
The idea is to have some choice, rather than being stuck with the PL.
Ria
Steve K9ZW, Elmer
That electrical continuity is unaffected by barrel tightness makes N-connectors appeal to me.
Again if the consequence of a loose connector is a two-day trip with boat schedule to work around, the advantage is huge.
Curious on your contest club, why would they espouse Ludditism to favor good over better? Seems daft bluntly.
Either antenna connector choice going for the best quality components pays more dividends than about any connector choice you can otherwise make.
Station standardization is useful, and if your station has several hundred UHF connector pairs in place you are very unlikely to change. We looked a retrofitting the W9EVT station, and best guess it would have taken a month or so - just not worth it.
That doesn't preclude while in the process of building up a new station from making a better choice though. In my stations the incremental cost between types of quality (not economy) connectors was minimal, and other than a handful of adapter for items that it simply wasn't possible to change to N-connectors that was it.
Of course I no longer needed to buy adapters the other way to use the Collins S-Line setup at each QTH.
73
Steve
K9ZW
Again if the consequence of a loose connector is a two-day trip with boat schedule to work around, the advantage is huge.
Curious on your contest club, why would they espouse Ludditism to favor good over better? Seems daft bluntly.
Either antenna connector choice going for the best quality components pays more dividends than about any connector choice you can otherwise make.
Station standardization is useful, and if your station has several hundred UHF connector pairs in place you are very unlikely to change. We looked a retrofitting the W9EVT station, and best guess it would have taken a month or so - just not worth it.
That doesn't preclude while in the process of building up a new station from making a better choice though. In my stations the incremental cost between types of quality (not economy) connectors was minimal, and other than a handful of adapter for items that it simply wasn't possible to change to N-connectors that was it.
Of course I no longer needed to buy adapters the other way to use the Collins S-Line setup at each QTH.
73
Steve
K9ZW
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
It's hardly unique to my club, some contesters were using DOS up to a few years ago. Either way I still use N and I'm happy with it.
It isn't that N isn't better. It most definitely is better. When we redid our station we used Hardline and N connectors on everything, even the 160 meter antenna, which put us far into diminishing returns.
Then at the interior patch panel, we have N-UHF adapters for the last 6 feet. Because that's what the radios have on them. Would it have been better to have N connectors on the radios? Now we're getting into an interesting area. We certainly would have to have a flexible pigtail on the patch panel, there is no way I would work with hardline to each radio/tuner/amplifier combination.
This isn't being a luddite, it is putting together systems using what the components of the system have. I'd have to have a tuner with N connectors, power amplifiers with N connectors, rejjection filters with N connectors. Until those devices all have N connectors, I'm dealing with adapters regardless.
And at HF, exactly what quantifiable gain will I get for all of that work?
Then at the interior patch panel, we have N-UHF adapters for the last 6 feet. Because that's what the radios have on them. Would it have been better to have N connectors on the radios? Now we're getting into an interesting area. We certainly would have to have a flexible pigtail on the patch panel, there is no way I would work with hardline to each radio/tuner/amplifier combination.
This isn't being a luddite, it is putting together systems using what the components of the system have. I'd have to have a tuner with N connectors, power amplifiers with N connectors, rejjection filters with N connectors. Until those devices all have N connectors, I'm dealing with adapters regardless.
And at HF, exactly what quantifiable gain will I get for all of that work?
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
I don't want to convert anyone to N. I just don't want to be looked at as a weirdo because I choose to use them almost exclusively in my station.
Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer
Everyone who comes to my house looks up and sees all that aluminum and wire, already think I'm a weirdo, especially my wife. To be a weirdo among all us weirdos would be a badge of honour :) I use dielectric grease inside all my VHF/UHF N-connectors, on HF well keep it simple with PL-259.
We all make choices for our station that others don't like. We make choices that make sense to us for different reasons. I wouldn't waste the effort to put N-connectors on HF but I surely would not criticize those that do. I salute the extra effort to squeeze every micro watt for performance, durability and longevity.
We all make choices for our station that others don't like. We make choices that make sense to us for different reasons. I wouldn't waste the effort to put N-connectors on HF but I surely would not criticize those that do. I salute the extra effort to squeeze every micro watt for performance, durability and longevity.
(Edited)
Tim - W4TME, Customer Experience Manager
Weirdo is not politically correct. We are "eccentric" ;-)
Oh, I certainly didn't mean to cast any aspersions, Ria. It was just a convenient place to chime in. And I definitely qualify as a weirdo myself. Or alt-thought process.
At times I just stick the center conductor of the coax into the hole of the SO-239 and use a bread tie to secure the shield to the outer threads...works fine.
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
Just to clarify - using heliax means you don't have ready access to PL259 for it. For the main tower the run is 250'. That's a lot of loss on 10 and 6. When I put 1.5kw out I want most of that at the antenna. This is how I started using N.
Ria
Ria
I have quite a few UHF males for LDF-4!
re center conductor stuck in the connector and using bread ties to finish the work. My Kind of Ham radio Ross. I pride myself on my innovation and precision work - kinda like this fine job of solderfication! 8^)
I wonder. With the complaints about some of the easily fixable items that some are complaining about, do hams not build anything any more?
I have microphones with 1/8", 1/4" and even XLR. Kind of hard for me to figure which type to consider the right one. The same with headphones. My Heil has the larger jack, but it is uncomfortable after a little while, so the more comfortable headset with the 1/8" plug is pressed into service. If I get excited about it, I'll just put 1/4 inch on everything.
I know several hams who would be really peeved if the radio had no PowerPole, as their whole station is powerPoled.
Also, An HF radio with N connectors is a real non starter.
But if for some reason Flex did adopt all of these requests, I'd make pigtails for the microphones (like I have already), and pigtail for the new connector to my PowerPole connectors, and a UHF-N adapter, since my HF antennas and all my HF equipment uses UHF.
I have microphones with 1/8", 1/4" and even XLR. Kind of hard for me to figure which type to consider the right one. The same with headphones. My Heil has the larger jack, but it is uncomfortable after a little while, so the more comfortable headset with the 1/8" plug is pressed into service. If I get excited about it, I'll just put 1/4 inch on everything.
I know several hams who would be really peeved if the radio had no PowerPole, as their whole station is powerPoled.
Also, An HF radio with N connectors is a real non starter.
But if for some reason Flex did adopt all of these requests, I'd make pigtails for the microphones (like I have already), and pigtail for the new connector to my PowerPole connectors, and a UHF-N adapter, since my HF antennas and all my HF equipment uses UHF.
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
My entire station is N apart from the radios and amp itself. But once coax leaves the shack it's N.
Also I don't see what all the fuss is about with the 3.5mm jacks since Apache labs has pretty much settled on them and everyone is fawning over those radios as a "flex killer."
But I agree that the option (for added cost) of a foster connector and 1/4" connectors would be nice. One reason why I like my 6700.
Ria
Also I don't see what all the fuss is about with the 3.5mm jacks since Apache labs has pretty much settled on them and everyone is fawning over those radios as a "flex killer."
But I agree that the option (for added cost) of a foster connector and 1/4" connectors would be nice. One reason why I like my 6700.
Ria
(Edited)
Steve K9ZW, Elmer
You do point out the conundrum a manufacturer faces - so do they use legacy connectors knowing the shortcomings because the installed base is wide, or do they use the best they can find at the risk of some folk needing adapters and pigtails?
On 4o3a's gear antenna connectors are a user (or who ever is ordering the unit) choice to make.
Since some FRS radios arguably are built to fulfill an order with deposit, perhaps the choice could be offered?
I hear you on adapters, as I have to use N-to-UHF adapters to hook in UHF-connector equipped gear as I've used N-Connectors wherever possible.
73
Steve K9ZW
Well, If I had to re-do my entire system I would think very long and hard about buying a Flex Radio.
And the best power connector is a strong mechanical connection of a threaded rod and bolt.
And the best power connector is a strong mechanical connection of a threaded rod and bolt.
(Edited)
At HF frequencies, even 50 MHz the difference in loss between connector types is infinitesimally small, certainly not enough to make an S-meter move nor make the difference between copy vs no copy. Even on 150 MHz commercial gear standard UHF connectors at the bottom end are the norm. Heliax transmission line? Sure, but don’t you still need a short flexible jumper at the exciter? In a pinch I too have just shoved the center conductor into the SO-239 with a rubber band around the braid. :)
(Edited)
I used a bread tie
Ken - NM9P, Elmer
For a more permanent "temporary" fix, use a stainless steel worm gear clamp....
There are lots of connectors available. I have a soft spot for the ancient Cinch Jones:
Rugged, human sized, simple to solder, rugged! But not hermaphroditic.
Rugged, human sized, simple to solder, rugged! But not hermaphroditic.
Steve K9ZW, Elmer
These are good connectors. I've not been able to find shielded-pin varieties - are they made? (So that if the plug is not fully seated it is protected from shorting out between pins, and protected if you hold an energized one in your hand.)
73
Steve K9ZW
I think I have seen recessed panel mount connectors that help with this issue. Somehow, the Jones types are historically appropriate to match the also-very-old UHF connectors!
George Molnar, KF2T, Elmer
Seems like a small bud box with four chassis-mounted mini plugs matching the 6400/6600 socket pattern would provide a mechanically stable platform and allow the industrious ham the option of making a break out box with any connector, including Molex, Jones, Cinch, Foster, RCA, XLR, binding posts, etc. The shielded box would be "full time" plugged to the back, would be low-cost, and completely open to whatever you like for connections.
Hmmm.... business opportunity?
Hmmm.... business opportunity?
Steve K9ZW, Elmer
Certainly would work, especially if you could design it to "clamp" to the radio providing positive-interface.
I should explain that when one's remote station is 120 miles away, with enough water to require a ferry or boat ride across a straight that was named "Death's Door" for a reason, that having 100% positive locking connectors is desirable.
In an interface box for the antennas, would it be possible to avoid the mismatch UHF connectors cause? N-Connectors are pretty hard to "see" with a TDR, but UHF stand right out.
Wondering if the PowerGeniusXL and TunerGeniusS will have N-connectors as an option like other 4o3a gear does?
Hmm...
73
Steve K9ZW
Ken - NM9P, Elmer
George, I plan to build a similar patch box for the mic & headphone input. Probably will incorporate XLR, 1/4 TRS, 3.5mm unbalanced mic, 3.5mm mic/headphone combo, and separate 1/4 and 3.5mm mic & headphone connectors.
I might also incorporate 8-pin Foster and 8-pin RJ-45 as well and bring ptt lines in with jacks for footswitch and thumb switch, and tie ptt into the Foster and RJ-45. It all depends upon how much work I want to put into it.
One think I do know: Even if I just use the short 1/4 TRS to right angle 3.5mm TRS I already purchased to adapt my 1/4 keyer paddle to my Flex 1500, I will certainly be looking for an appropriate tie-down spot to secure the adapter pigtail to the chassis so that it will relieve the strain on the rig's jack if the cord gets yanked by something. (my own klutzy feet, my 10 year-old son, or my pets escaping into the shack...)
I might also incorporate 8-pin Foster and 8-pin RJ-45 as well and bring ptt lines in with jacks for footswitch and thumb switch, and tie ptt into the Foster and RJ-45. It all depends upon how much work I want to put into it.
One think I do know: Even if I just use the short 1/4 TRS to right angle 3.5mm TRS I already purchased to adapt my 1/4 keyer paddle to my Flex 1500, I will certainly be looking for an appropriate tie-down spot to secure the adapter pigtail to the chassis so that it will relieve the strain on the rig's jack if the cord gets yanked by something. (my own klutzy feet, my 10 year-old son, or my pets escaping into the shack...)
George Molnar, KF2T, Elmer
Sounds like a plan, Ken!
Steve K9ZW, Elmer
I never did like Power Pole connectors. Down East Microwave uses NEUTRIK connectors on all of their equipment. Nice connector, push in then twist to lock. Keeps dust and dirt out of the connector as well. Powerpole connectors get dirty and after a while you can have a bit of voltage drop due to tarnished connectors and or weak contact.
Norm W7CK
Norm W7CK
(Edited)
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
Who was it that started putting powerpole connectors in transceivers? Elecraft? I think it's a bad trend. I never liked it. Seemed too easy to break.
I see why they are not using NeuTrik connectors, they are very pricey compared to a bag Power Poles but I do like them for ruggedized installations.
I use these connectors extensively throughout my home...very effective 
I spent a lot of my life as an N-connector fan boy. If everything goes well, they are OK through microwave frequencies. Constant impedance and all that. But, I find them kind of fragile if not professionally attached to the cable. Center pin alignment and depth of attachment are quite critical and can cause all sorts of problems if too loose (arcing) or too close (splayed female segments). If used outside, even with a weather wrap, I have seen the cable pull loose from the braid clamp and the whole cable "un-plugs" from the connector housing. I actually began to avoid N-connectors unless professionally attached using professional tools from a reputable shop.
UHF connectors can be soldered (PL-259) to braided coax or can be clamped on to Heliax quite securely. I think they are a must for reliable field service up through at least 6 meters and quite possibly through 222 MHz. I draw the line at 432.
However, 7/16 DIN is the absolute best connector for high power and good impedance way past 1296. It has a very robust center pin arrangement that can carry lots of current and it is rarely the victim of tiny misalignments to which type N is so vulnerable. I use 7/16 DIN wherever I can.
UHF connectors can be soldered (PL-259) to braided coax or can be clamped on to Heliax quite securely. I think they are a must for reliable field service up through at least 6 meters and quite possibly through 222 MHz. I draw the line at 432.
However, 7/16 DIN is the absolute best connector for high power and good impedance way past 1296. It has a very robust center pin arrangement that can carry lots of current and it is rarely the victim of tiny misalignments to which type N is so vulnerable. I use 7/16 DIN wherever I can.
(Edited)
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
I found that the Andrew connectors come with good instructions and the plastic cutting guide is in the box. Never had a problem. Cheap China connectors to attach to RG213 are garbage. Amphenol 82-2-1006 N male are excellent. I keep at least a few dozen of them on hand. I don't have specialized tools just a caliper and an exacto knife, soldering station. Yes they can be difficult for some hams with less than stellar eyesight and who want something easy to deal with.
Ria
Ria
(Edited)
What's the big fuss? -- Everything is fine here! hi hi de wd9hsy
Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer
Paul Christensen, W9AC, Elmer
A few years ago several serious engineers (who were also hams) in a serious lab ran serious SWR and loss tests on a number of popular RF connectors and published the results. To the surprise of many, the old fashioned Heathkit favorite RCA jack took top honors. (Now if they would only come out with a decent matching plug.) Just sayin'... not proposing.
N connectors are better then pl259 ..... but you cant tell the difference unless you have expensive test equipment, pl259 is my preference, especially for HF.
Power Poles do not fall apart if they put together right, they snap yet do come apart when needed, I mean really do you slide your radio around on a table???? Love power poles... entire shack has them..... there GENDERLESS ............you wont realize how good that is till you use them.
1/8 for a Mic that will be hand held is totally unacceptable, 1/8 inch will not take any abuse, In my case my mic line goes to a mic selector box which is never moved so in MY case it would be ok but still don't want!!!
Power Poles do not fall apart if they put together right, they snap yet do come apart when needed, I mean really do you slide your radio around on a table???? Love power poles... entire shack has them..... there GENDERLESS ............you wont realize how good that is till you use them.
1/8 for a Mic that will be hand held is totally unacceptable, 1/8 inch will not take any abuse, In my case my mic line goes to a mic selector box which is never moved so in MY case it would be ok but still don't want!!!
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
Not saying it should be mandatory, just optional. I run hardline and they come with N connectors. Adapters make things a bit messy, especially where room behind the radio is at a premium.
Ria
Ria
(Edited)
Peter K1PGV, Elmer
I was an N-Connector, anti-powerpole, campaigner for several years. I standardized on N-connectors in my shack, and I banned the use of power pole connectors with any of my gear.
That lasted for a while. I just found it too hard to swim against the tide. Too much equipment comes with the connectors I didn't choose to use, and I wound up with lots of annoying converters.
Every time I have to use a power pole or PL259, I just shake my head.
Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.
Yet I remain a passionate anti-power pole advocate. The only advantage of a power pole connector is that it has a nice, long, mating surface. But the fact that they're genderless so you can connect you gear with the wrong power polarity, the fact that pairs of power poles can come apart unless you glue,or pin them, and the fact that they can be easily pulled or fall apart makes me nuts. Anytime I have a power pole connection that I want to NOT fall apart inadvertently, I cable tie it. What kind of a reasonable connector requires that?
Peter
K1PGV
That lasted for a while. I just found it too hard to swim against the tide. Too much equipment comes with the connectors I didn't choose to use, and I wound up with lots of annoying converters.
Every time I have to use a power pole or PL259, I just shake my head.
Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.
Yet I remain a passionate anti-power pole advocate. The only advantage of a power pole connector is that it has a nice, long, mating surface. But the fact that they're genderless so you can connect you gear with the wrong power polarity, the fact that pairs of power poles can come apart unless you glue,or pin them, and the fact that they can be easily pulled or fall apart makes me nuts. Anytime I have a power pole connection that I want to NOT fall apart inadvertently, I cable tie it. What kind of a reasonable connector requires that?
Peter
K1PGV
Ria - N2RJ, Elmer
Too much equipment comes with the connectors I didn't choose to use, and I wound up with lots of annoying converters.This is true if you're referring to amateur equipment at HF. For weak signal VHF/UHF it is almost all N on amateur equipment and other connectors like 7/16 DIN on commercial gear.
What I found puzzling was the use of BNC on receive antenna ports. But I guess they have to do that if they're also being used for other things. I have to use annoying converters to connect F connectors which are pretty much the standard for amateur low band receive antennas. What's worse is that most of the BNC to F connectors are 75 ohm with a smaller pin so they don't work. So you have to rig up something and often it isn't pretty.
Paul Christensen, W9AC, Elmer
Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer
