3D FFT Display

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Does anyone know if Flex has any plans to develop a 3D display akin to the new Yaesu FTdx-101d 3D display? It is mind blowing awesome how great their 3D display is for finding signals! 
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Larry - WA7LZO

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Posted 7 months ago

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KF4HR

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Each to their own I suppose but the 3D display looks like a novelty to me.  I prefer band scope and waterfall.
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Larry - WA7LZO

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I like having the choice/option of choosing any of the 3 views. Not at all clear you’d have to eliminate the waterfall, just because you have 3D on the main FFT display. I assume the waterfall would also go 3D. Once you’ve actually used 3D , though, I seriously doubt anyone would ever want to go back to plain old 2D. I remember this same phenomenon when color TV first came out. B&W diehards said, Who needs it? Just a novelty! But, as mentioned, it’s a personal choice, and to each his own.
(Edited)
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KF4HR

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The only real portion of the band scope display that matters is the front (most forward real time pip), the rest just indicates the same as waterfall history.  If suspect if someone can't find a signal between a standard band scope and the waterfall displays, perhaps it's time to give up.  If Flex does decide to add this display novelty, I would prefer they go with Mark's display.  It's much cleaner than Yaesu's 3D display.
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Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer

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KF4HR I see what your saying, the bandscope/waterfal works for you as indeed it should. However with innovative, forward thinking there could and probably will be a display method you or I haven't thought about.
7-segment digital readout VFO and fish finders, wow, it will never get any better than that. Thank God for innovation.
(Edited)
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K3SF

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IMHO

The bandscope/waterfall is 3D...you have time, freq and signal strength (aka 3 Dimensions)...the 3D is presented in the waterfall  as time, freq and signal strength too where signal strength  is shown  as various colors and intensities...

The water fall is a good data compression of 3D...by reduces the complexity of navigating/perceiving a 3D space into a 2D space.

Paul K3SF
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Mark - WS7M

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Not a Flex offering but I was working on software in 2015, project abandoned at this point but this was the 3D pan I came up with:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7myl0w93f1y5olm/3DPanaFall.mp4?dl=0

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mikeatthebeach .

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Mark
Looks neat
What Radio were you using
Like to know more about it
Mike
WB6DJI

Please Send info to my QRZ e-mail
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James Whiteway

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Mark, I really do like the way your version looks. Plus, it seems to provide more info since you include the waterfall as well.
James
WD5GWY
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Bill -VA3WTB

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What is it showing front to back? It is waving, what does that show?
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Mark - WS7M

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That was a 6500.   The code is C++ using Qt framework.  The project kind of stalled due to time.

Bill:  Front is your current reading from the radio.  As it moves back and right it is each prior radio trace. So they march back and to the right in time.

I don't remember the size or time of the display but I think it was like 5 seconds worth of data.  So you saw 5 seconds of history on a signal.

The waving is me dragging the pan back/forth.  The old data lags behind.

There is one signal that looked like a couple of competeing CW signals that kind of wavered.
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Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer

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Mark, this is nice display!  I can see it would be quite useful for weak signals, but would get very cluttered during say a contest. Would love to have this option to display, may I suggest rekindling it as an FRlogger addon. Wow.
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Mark - WS7M

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Ya, probably useless for a contest for sure.  It is a novelty that when you have the space can sort to tell you a little more about a signal for like 5 seconds of time.
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KF4HR

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IMO your 3D version is much easier on the eyes than the Yaesu 3D version.  Please keep us informed if you decide to proceed! 
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Larry - WA7LZO

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Here's a short YouTube video demo'ing the FTdx-101d 3D display:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI9uch7AWNA

If you are pressed for time, he shows the 3D phenomenon at about 2 minutes into the 3 minute video. It looks like the waterfall is almost superfluous, given the 3D capabilities. But, I don't see any particular reason why a 3D waterfall could not also be developed. Maybe as an ultimate high end, 6700 only feature?

I know thus far, all features show up on all Flex software, but maybe this would be something to distinguish their highest end (Mercedes) 6700 product, giving a sort of extra oomph incentive to the high end boys? I know it's sheer heresy to suggest differentiated software capabilites, but just some food for thought...
(Edited)
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Ken Hansen

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There are enough differences between the current Flex Signature series radios that an interesting display option isn't needed to differentiate the models further. The purpose of a differentiator is to compel/encourage someone contemplating, say, a Flex 6600 to upgrade to a Flex 6700 - do you really think a 3D panadapter would do that?
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Ken Hansen

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I can't see how a three-d waterfall adds meaningful functionality to the radio operator above/beyond what current waterfall displays do. For my money, the current waterfall is easier to interpret quickly, looking over a 3D drawing of the last 30 seconds of transmissions, set off on a 45 degree angle behind the panadapter , but maybe that's just me

That said, I suspect now that Yaesu has put it out on the market Flex will likely add some element of that type of display to SSDR.
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Larry - WA7LZO

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Yes, I believe a 3D panadapter will do it. I love the free hand of competition. I just hope we see Flex 3D display capabilities soon. Hopefully, all of this CW stuff will finally take a back seat to implementing new functions and features that will keep everything leading edge. Although, in this case, we’ll be chasing Yaesu, not unlike how Ham gear has been chasing commercial Part 90 radios for years now. Check out the new Codan 1kW LIQUID COOLED true 100% continuous duty amp, in all modes, mind you, including digital!
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DAVID GRAY

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Is  a 3D  panadapter anything other than just different?  I remember at a HALPC meeting years ago a Microsoft rep was telling us we would soon have talking gas gauges on cars.....   Sometimes analog is as far as you need to go.
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Larry - WA7LZO

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Yes, it’s just oh, so much better than plain ol’ 2D!
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John - K3MA

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I really want to know how he hooks up via USB to any monitor?  Now that is something I would buy.
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Ken Hansen

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USB to VGA adapter:

Premium USB 3.0 to VGA Adapter Converter, Jackiey Mini Full HD External Video Card Multi Monitor Adapter USB to VGA Adapter Converter Support Max Resolution 1080p for Win 7 8 10 (Black)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07P99F59Z/...

USB to DVI adapter:

Display to DVI Adapter Converter, FEMORO DisplayPort DP to DVI-I Adapter Male to Female 1080P (Male to Female) Compatible with Computer, Desktop, Laptop, PC, Monitor, Projector, HDTV - Black

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GORJY4U/...

USB to HDMI adapter:

USB to HDMI Display Adapter JUA195

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HIV2XR6/...
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N9VC

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According to the manual, the external display connector supports 800 x 600
or 800 x 450 resolution. Not cutting edge to me.
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W7NGA

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It's actually 4D ... don't accept anything else!

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Mark - WS7M

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Ok Dan we are giving you a special version that puts all your pans in another dimension!
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Eric Gruff

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The baseball All-Star Game had a 5D camera of the batters. I guess the bar (bat?) has been raised.
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Joe N3HEE

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The 3D panadapter shows innovation and provides another look at the RF spectrum that may prove to be useful. Time will tell how well it is received by users. Either way, it sets Yaesu apart from the competition. The many different display options on the new FTdx101D are also quite nice. Don’t underestimate this radio!
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Bill -VA3WTB

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It will be all the rave for a while I'm sure. It is interesting but usefull? I'm not sure. I am not sure how seeing the few seconds history is a good tool.
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Larry - WA7LZO

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Seeing signals in Yaesu’s newly released, all new FTdx-101d clever 3D display, plus their display’s historical view, greatly helps the operator to very easily and quickly find and locate signals. That’s the entire point of Yaesu’s ground breaking SDR FFT 3D display, juxtaposed to traditional and older 2D display limitations. Yes, their 3D display is nothing short of sheer beauty, as everyone is agreeing with, but the real enduring value of this new 3D display is how it immensely helps the OP to instantly snag and pounce on signals. Thus, this new 3D technology gives the OP using this 3D display in tough and highly competitive contests oh, so much of an advantage over the typical 2D constrained conventional operator. This is what is called taking full advantage of new technology! I sure hope Flex will answer the competition bell that has just rung, and embark on some R&D efforts to develop their own answer to a 3D based display.
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John - K3MA

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Maybe a good point but first we need to see it under crowded band contest conditions as it could just as easily be sensory overload.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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I still don't see any advantage finding signals, does this mean you can find signals you can't find on a Flex?
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Larry - WA7LZO

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`
Not necessarily, but 3D is just so much faster and simpler/easier to find signals. Much more intuitive to use, too.
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Bill -VA3WTB

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Faster and simpler?..I quess i'm missing something,, I mean it looks cool, but other than that?
Anyways it's intersting...
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Robert Lonn

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So if I get this new radio with 3D display, where do I pliug in the HDMI cable to display this breathtaking display on a 4K monitor,, but dont use it on digital modes since the 10 MHz external lock feature is not yet working,, the connector is missing...  :-)

Robert
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Gene Duprey

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I'm sorry, but I just do not see any advantage to seeing in the past on the pan adapter.  You already get this on the waterfall. and on a crowded contest band this history would be mush and undecypherable.

Gene, K1GD
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Ken - NM9P

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Imagine linking a 3D display to your rotator direction readout... spin the antenna and get a graphic representation of the relative strengths of signals on a compass rose chart.... could be very handy to track down sources of interference, or chart the hot direction of radio propagation....

It could be interesting and useful technology, once applications are developed that move it past the eye candy phase.

I see this as the next logical step in the development of visual aids to helping us understand the spectrum.....

First we had the magic eye tube display,
Then the S-Meter,
Then a simple IF band scope,
Then a basic band scan pip,
Then an SDR panadapter,
Then a waterfall,
Then a panafall,
Next comes a simple 3D display,
Then adaptive tools using 3D technology....

What’s next? The experimenters will answer that question....

Perhaps in my retirement I will learn C# and add to the list.....
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Steve K9ZW, Elmer

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This time-persistence “3D” display is neat.

Time on air with it would be interesting.

Undecided if utility is gained?

If several signal sources could be merged into a time-persistence display the “3D” effect could be a better way to represent the merged data.

Regardless it is neat to see the innovative approaches in the current new offerings.

It certainly will all work to better the state of the art.

73

Steve
K9ZW
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Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer

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Eye candy for sure, but Mark's method would be a welcome change for eye fatigue. Not necessarily on all the time but for a change. Like binaural audio, sometimes I put it on, my ears like the change and forget it's on, and then I turn it off and forget I turn it off. The brain, or should I say, my brain works funny.

Sure the panadapter is not needed to work DX, neither is the waterfall. In a DXpedition situation when they are working split 15 or 20 wide, I bet most Flexers who know how to use these amazing tools can beat anyone with a legacy radio. I've done it many, many times.
(Edited)
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mikeatthebeach .

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Adding 3D Panadapter would do the trick for FlexRadio against
The coming wave of 3D products like the Yaesu FTDX101D which
I might pick up soon from Yaesu
73 Mike
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Dan Trainor

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I think ham radio is far behind in 3D graphics.  If you look at the Marine Navigation GPS/Bathometric depth finders and charting software, they all have advanced 3D graphics as an option and it brings things to life once your senses get used to it.  Ham Radio is in catch up mode as the market is too small to invest in innovation. dan
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Ken Hansen

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Why must my HF radio include a display copies from a 'fish finder'? I don't sense a great issue with current interfaces, but maybe I'm not the target audience.

Has anyone gotten any feedback on the 3D interface on the new Yaesu radios?

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Gene Duprey

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I looked at the 3D display on the Yaris, and could see nothing it gave me that I did not already have. More of a gimmick than useful information. Why waste time putting it on any radio?

Gene, K1GD
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Larry - WA7LZO

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Well, I suppose you could also ask “Why use a GPS when a Thomas map guide works perfectly fine?” Answer: Cuz it’s called”technology,” and it’s 2019! You know, like when cell phones replaced pay phones?

If ham radio enthusiasts keep resisting new technology, like when hams insisted on hanging on to AM when SSB came out, anyone less than 75 years old will never be attracted to ham radio. Then, FCC will claw back all of our frequencies, and ham radio will be kaput.

Hang around with some Millennials. They’ll explain it to you.

Just sayin...
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Ken Hansen

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Not quite sure why you decided to attack me personally, but so be it.

We use GPS over printed maps not because it is 'technology', but because it provides positive benefits over printed maps - I've never had a printed map alert me to upcoming turns, as but one example.

Using technology because it is available reminds me of a scene in a Monty Python movie - "The Machine that goes Ping":

Note: Monty Python humor is often off-color, some readers may prefer to not watch it, suffice to say it embodies the idea of adding technology for the sale of adding technology and impressing others.

Link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=arCITMf...

I embrace technology when it adds value, not when it adds complexity and cost without benefit. And to that end, I ask again, has anyone gotten any feedback on the 3D spectrum scope from people that own the radios? THAT feedback is far more relevant than insisting that Flex simply embrace/chance every new technical novelty released by it's competitors, for fear of being viewed as falling behind.
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Mike - VE3CKO, Elmer

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Resisting new technology is not what is at question. Who cares if it's new technology the question is, is the method of display useful? Good point about being a gimmick. I think Mark - WS7M adaptation of 3D with SmartSDR is a great start and looks way better than what Yaesu did but would need to play with it to see if is is useful, worthwhile or eye candy as previously discussed. Here is the link again: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7myl0w93f1y5olm/3DPanaFall.mp4?dl=0


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Eric Gruff

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At the risk of hijacking this thread, which seems to happen often on the Flex forums, I'll jump in to wholeheartedly agree with Mike, VE3CKO.

There was a lively discussion a year or two ago on attracting youngsters to radiosport (contesting). One of the themes that came up repeatedly was that the existing entertainment/hobbies for young people (video games, smartphones, etc.) were so much more stimulating to the senses than staring at a typical ham radio, even one with a panadapter display. There were some interesting suggestions about trying to expand contesting to integrate Internet-based and VR technologies as well.

It's unlikely most of these things will happen, but as a ham for 42+ years who started as a 12 year-old in the hobby, I was drawn to the ability to be able to talk all over the world and use really cool technologies that were otherwise not available to me. If I put myself in the shoes of the same kid today, there's little that ham radio can do that I can't do via other means. There are some things that are somewhat buried, like the learning experience and the chance to contribute to new technology, as well as the "if all else fails" aspect, but none of those things seems particularly "sexy".

In many ways, we're still fighting the AM vs SSB wars with arguments over FT8, internet-based radio (DMR, D-Star, IRLP, etc.) and now 2D vs 3D vs Smellovision radios. If someone can invent it and someone else is willing to buy it, I say let's try it!

Just my $0.02.

Eric NC6K
(Edited)
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Larry - WA7LZO

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This is precisely the reason why 99.9% of Millennials have zero interest in ham radio.

Us old farts use our old slide rule ancient technology (yes, I'm being a bit of tongue in cheek here :) and we tell ourselves it's just as good as our iPhone or PC calculator functions. We can talk all day about why we don't NEED 3D on our ham radios, but that is my exact point. Millennials LOVE technology. Sans new fangled stuff, they have zero interest. This is why ham radio unfortunately may have a limited amount of time before the marketplace eventually will motivate Congress to pressure the FCC to step in and recall billions of $'s worth of spectrum, and put it to commercially profitable use by companies willing to buy it. These technology arguments are exactly the reason why the ham radio hobby is headed for extinction. And, No, it's not the issue of Yaesu 3D technology vs 2D, it's the entire ham attitude "...if it's good enough to get the job done, who cares if it pushes the state of the art...?" This is a big turn-off for Millennials, and without new blood, this hobby is sunk. Like one of my Econ Profs used to say, "If something cannot be sustained, it will not."

Enuf said. Now I feel like Wayne Green, which is definitely not good.
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Eric Gruff

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That's OK. I have at least one "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" moment every day.
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Ken Hansen

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The issue isn't 'needed or not' it's that it literally adds nothing to the radio as far as I can tell.

This isn't an age thing, it really isn't.

Next you'll be telling me that we need to be able to load apps on our radios, like we do on our smartphones... or perhaps we need to start broadcasting every QSO on Facebook.

The issue keeping young people out of the hobby isn't that our radios lack sophisticated features, and adding the latest tech for the sake of having the latest tech is non-sensical.

I've been deeply involved in this hobby (both personally and professionally), and I've never met a ham that talked about being 'recruited' into the hobby, everyone had an interest and cane to the hobby in furtherance of that interest - maybe they liked public service, maybe radio fascinated them, maybe they just liked the people in the club. Everyone thinks they know what is 'holding the hobby back', but there really isn't a problem - total numbers of licensees are on the rise, and manufacturers are offering some of the best radios ever produced and at reasonable prices. The growth in the hobby today is the empty-nester that always had an interest but career, family, etc always got in the way.

You aren't going to get teens and twenty-something's to join your club, but you will get the 45+ year-old looking for a hobby who used to play with TRS-80s and Apple computers as a kid, then played with electronics, and now, after a career in tech is looking for something new.

If the future of the hobby depends on adding a fish-finder interface to the radio, or on adopting the mindset that believes the fish-finder interface is important, the hobby is already dead.



From: http://www.fishhunter.com/ice-fishing...
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Larry - WA7LZO

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“...You aren't going to get teens and twenty-something's to join your club, but you will get the 45+ year-old...”

Exactly my point! Unfortunately, if you are correct, then re-arranging the furniture on the deck of the Titanic won’t save the ham radio hobby. I don’t know about your fish finders, but us old geezers best find a way to recruit lots of young ppl (which are definitely not the 45 + year old crowd!), or what my Econ Prof said will rule the day.
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Ken Hansen

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Focusing on teens is never going to pan out. I've got two clubs within 15 miles of my home, each has more than 125 active members. Of the last 20 new members that joined the one club, none were under 40 years old, the other has a handful of college students because their college campus is inside the town the college is located.

If I consider all the clubs in my immediate area, I probably have over a dozen within reasonable driving distance (less than 25 miles).

From where I sit, the hobby isn't dying.
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Larry - WA7LZO

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"From where I sit, the hobby isn't dying."


The number of licensed hams in Japan in 1995 was about 1.4 million. By the end of 2006, this number had nose dived to only about 534,000! The last number I saw for licensed hams in Japan was around 380,000 in 2018.

So, the number of licensed hams in Japan has gone from more than twice as many hams as there were in the US, to now about half the number of US hams, with the latter having remained pretty near stagnant (maybe 1 or 2% growth, if you can even c all that "growth"). The number of US hams is barely keeping up with population increase, as it is essentially stagnant.

From where I sit, unless a lot of young folks (you know, the sub-45+ year old crowd) get interested in the amateur radio hobby, and fast, then Wayne Green's musings will unfortunately turn out to be correct.


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Bob G W1GLV

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just an advertising gimmick. To me it's all eye candy. I played with one at Hamvention and was not impressed. During a pileup especially with CW it looks like a pile of jello moving around. This is my personnal opinion. Yaesu is still a good radio.
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Ken Hansen

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I'm not qualified to critique the radio behind the interface, but I spent 15-20 minutes playing with the 3D display on an FTDX-101 at my local HRO, and I didn't see any benefit. A 'traditional' 2D waterfall makes it obvious where the signals were, the new 3D waterfall (fish finder) makes a confusing muddle of the waterfall, making it hard to set the VFO where a particular signal was previously. .. you have to follow an imaginary diagonal line back thru the waterfall and 'guesstimate' where the signal was frequency-wise.

Granted, this is a first-generation implementation, it could get better, but I failed to see any pressing need for that 'improvement' in the SSDR software.